Do you ever privately judge people for bringing a baby into bad circumstances?

[Boilthekettleplease]

I've wondered how other people feel about this.

I'm coming to terms with not having a child of my own, because ultimately it would be putting my own needs ahead of any child to risk trying to have one. There's a high chance it would be a medical disaster and I'd be permanently seriously affected, which means I wouldn't be as able to look after the child, or die a few years later from kidney failure.

I'm curious if people would judge me for (hypothetically) trying to be a mum in a situation like this? Or do most people feel that the drive for a child is so strong they understand why people try against all the odds?

Do you ever judge people for having a child in situations where there are predictable risks or downsides?

There’s a difference between someone having children while in poverty and someone having children with an illness they know is likely to kill them before that child’s childhood ends.

People who have children in poverty should have the ability to be pro-active in changing their circumstances. if they don’t. If they think that they have a god-given right to keep reproducing and that the government should just continue to provide then yes, I judge them.

But on the illness front, I read an article on the BBC recently about a woman with Huntington’s who despite her diagnosis decided to go ahead and have a baby, in the knowledge that that baby will have to grow up seeing her deteriorate, probably become her carer, and then to add to that, the possibility that he/she will have inherited condition and will get a snapshot of what their life is going to be and how it’s going to end.

Yes. I judged. Harshly. It becomes much harder to empathise with someone in that position when they essentially stick two fingers up at the situation and say “I don’t really care who this affects, I want a baby, and well, if the baby inherits the condition then so be it, after all, by the time they get to the point of deterioration they will already have watched it happen to me.” No obviously that’s not what she said but she might as well have.

OP as parents we should strive to do the best for our children. And sometimes doing the best means accepting that you (as in one in general) would be best off not to have any.

I have a genetic heart condition which hadn’t been diagnosed before I had my DS. I have had some serious illness since then, cardiac arrest, heart surgery, and at some point I will be heading for the transplant list as I have exhausted all other interventions I can have (although fortunately I’m still stable so fingers crossed.) I’m fortunately too old to have more children, but knowing what I do now, I would never have had more, not only because of the risk to me, but because I wouldn’t want to put a child of mine through what I’ve been through.

In fact if I’d known what I know now before I had DS then I wouldn’t have had him. As it is there’s a chance he’s inherited my heart condition, but he’s over 18 now and needs to find that out for himself if he wants to know (a lot of people choose not to,)

My problem with 'you shouldn't have a child when you can't afford it/can't afford the basics/can't afford it without state help' is that in the UK, the basics are so expensive - housing and childcare being the most obvious expenses, but then add council tax, rising food prices, rising cost of living - and even being able 'to afford' one child seems impossible for people on low (or even middle) incomes. And instead of trying to make society more equal, so poorer people can reasonably afford to have 1 or 2 children and give them a decent quality of life, we just say, you must be able to afford these eye-wateringly expensive things by yourself, no help from the state, and if you can't then you shouldn't be having children.

My parents are quite working class, they had 3 children and they could give us a decent quality of life, but I think it would be incredibly difficult for a working class family of 5 to do so now. Obviously times have changed, but people haven't stopped wanting children.

I also remember reading a thread on here a while ago, by a woman earning what, to me, was a decent wage (in the £30,000s pa), but she lived in the South and was having trouble making ends meet, as a single mother with one child. I'm pretty sure the 'you had a child you couldn't afford' line came up then. So to me, 'you shouldn't have children you can't afford' does just seem to be a line throw out to shame people for not being high earners.

I'm so sorry for your situation, I think you've made a brave and mature choice.

It's easy for people to justify having a child, it takes real character to look beyond that drive to reproduce and acknowledge the impact of having a child you might not be able to parent. The cost of a child being brought into the world in circumstances where the parents can't cope for some reason is huge. It's hard to see that cost in the child - who even if their life isn't ideal seems to be doing better out of it simply by virtue of existing - but the ripples of inadequate parenting, and perhaps especially of a mother lost too soon, are felt by everyone who touches the family. If the risk is significant, though it must hurt to give up on a dream, it's a good choice for all those others around you. I hope you can find some solace in the love you are showing for them (and I hope they are supporting you too).

There are lots of people on here who are much better than me because, yes, I judge people for this all the time!
I don't have kids but have been planning to pull the trigger on getting a second dog for about 5 years, but our circumstances haven't been quite right (a holiday coming up, a wedding to attend, a house move etc). So when people dive in to having a baby without thought then, yes, I judge.
It irks me when my mum says, with a beam of joy on her face, "Oh good news, X and Y (a neighbour's, cousin's sister etc) are having a baby!" and I sit there thinking 'brilliant, they're in masses of debt, he's just lost his job and their relationship's on the rocks. Smart move'.
Like I say, I'm a monster, but I'm being honest!

@Blueeyedgirl21

I know a woman who had a lung transplant at 14, and was desperate for a baby. With careful management they made it happen, very much an ‘against the odds’ story and she had a beautiful girl when she was about 22. She’s obviously very very happy, her mother and father have a large role in the little girls life as Mum is often struggling with health. But she can do all the things she’s dreamed about like Santa visits, Christmas and birthdays etc and they do so much with the little one. Unfortunately I don’t think the prognosis is good for this woman and she is unlikely to see her child make high school. The child is healthy. It’s just sad because the child will inevitably have to watch her mum suffer and pass away at a young age, and be without her in later childhood and as she progresses into adulthood. It’s just a different experience I suppose. You could say it’s selfish or you could say she’s selfless because she does literally live for the child, I don’t know. You could have kids and then find out you have a terrible illness and die. You could be hit by a bus. Anything could happen. I suppose it’s the knowing that something will happen and you will be affected medically that you have to take into account, and how much you think this would impact a child and your ability to parent.

Does this child have an involved father?

I certainly judged the 65 year old German mother of 13 who had IVF treatment, ended up pregnant with quads, all because her youngest child said she wanted a younger sibling!

OP I think you are brave and responsible.

I'm personally baffled by people who have children without some security in their financial circumstances, just because I can't imagine embarking on something so massive without making absolutely sure it wouldn't be a struggle. I wouldn't even get a dog unless I knew I had the time, money and space to take care of it properly. However I DON'T judge those people, it's too close to thinking that poor people shouldn't have children. If they can make it work fair play to them.

The ones I do judge (in my head) are the parents who bring children into shit relationships. The ones who think a baby can fix a relationship on the rocks, or who hate their partners and are using them for their sperm, or who are in abusive relationships and yet keep having babies with absolute arseholes. I want to scream whenever I see that happen. The poor children and the stupid, stupid parents.

I know one couple in my childhood who had alot of things their child could have inherited. They thought long and hard and planned for the worse and decided on one child. By luck their DC had the only none life threatend one that was sorted by an operation as a child. Child is a carrier now but works in NHS as grown up and decided not to have own children and gives alot back. I never judged the parents (they my parents friends).

Yeah I do judge. Especially the ones that come on here to moan that their partner has never helped with night feeds or nappy changes… yet has baby number 2 on the way suddenly expecting that their partner will step up!

@0verth1inker

If I’m being brutally honest yes, sometimes. I don’t mean an unplanned pregnancy at 18 but actually the partner gets onboard, there’s a supportive family etc but the ‘DH is an abusive dick and I’m planning how to leave, oh and I’’ 8 months pregnant with DC3’ are a bit .

I think you’ve picked a bad example there. The mother might have got pregnant because her oh is an abusive dick.

I would. I judge anyone for trying to bring a baby into the world that they know has a high chance of disability or that they're not going to be able to look after.

Can't you adopt or use a surrogate if it's the pregnancy that will hurt you?

I know a woman who had a lung transplant at 14, and was desperate for a baby. With careful management they made it happen, very much an ‘against the odds’ story and she had a beautiful girl when she was about 22. She’s obviously very very happy, her mother and father have a large role in the little girls life as Mum is often struggling with health. But she can do all the things she’s dreamed about like Santa visits, Christmas and birthdays etc and they do so much with the little one. Unfortunately I don’t think the prognosis is good for this woman and she is unlikely to see her child make high school. The child is healthy. It’s just sad because the child will inevitably have to watch her mum suffer and pass away at a young age, and be without her in later childhood and as she progresses into adulthood. It’s just a different experience I suppose. You could say it’s selfish or you could say she’s selfless because she does literally live for the child, I don’t know. You could have kids and then find out you have a terrible illness and die. You could be hit by a bus. Anything could happen. I suppose it’s the knowing that something will happen and you will be affected medically that you have to take into account, and how much you think this would impact a child and your ability to parent. on what planet should people feel happy that they get to do Santa visits and birthdays and all the wonderful things they dreamed of while knowing they’ve brought a child into the world who is unlikely to remember the Santa visits over the memory of watching them die, something they knew was going to happen before they were even conceived? There’s absolutely nothing selfless about her. If she was selfless she wouldn’t have had a child in the first place. She’s not living for her child, she’s had a child to make her last few years bearable. Selfish in the extreme.

I think I did judge when I was younger, but I've found in general as I've got a bit older I've been a bit more aware of the shades of grey in life, and more aware that you shouldn't judge people until you've walked in their shoes, and that's it's very easy to say what you'd do in circumstances you won't actually face. We all think we'd be saints, hypothetically.

There was a point where MN was awash with threads about how terribly irresponsible people like me, who got pregnant on purpose during the first lockdown, were. At the time I found it quite upsetting and disquieting, now I look at my 9 month old and think how stupid it would have been to have not had him on the advice of some judgemental people (almost all of whom already had all the children they wanted) on an internet forum.

Honestly yes.
My father was quite old and unwell when my parents started having children, dealing with the death of a parent in your early teens is grim.

Also I know people say not only the well off deserve children but if you literally don’t have a pot to piss in why does the child deserve that? My DPs mum had two kids before she was 20 and could barely afford to feed herself. Loved the idea of a baby but hadn’t really thought through actual children, my DPs childhood memories until he was about 10 and they moved in with his step dad are almost entirely just that he was bored and really hungry.

I am sorry for your situation OP, I understand the drive to become a mother and the grieving that goes along with it. Would surrogacy be an option? Maybe not your dream but a baby at the end of it without the strain of a pregnancy.

I do judge people for having children thoughtlessly, whether it is an abusive home, chaotic lifestyle or if they can’t afford it. I don’t understand people who don’t want the absolute best for their child and that includes the situation they are bringing them into.

The urge or desire for a child should not outweigh the quality of the baby’s life.

I'd never say anything, but yes, if I knew for sure that the person had knowingly brought a child into bad circumstances.

The thing is, rarely do we know enough details.

Personally, I'm not having children for many reasons, but one of them like you OP, is medical related. My parents couldn't have foreseen my medical issues, but the difference is, I can foresee the issues any of my offspring would have.

There are enough children in the world. I'm not vain enough to think my crappy genes are necessary.

In your case I absolutely wouldn’t judge, I would think it was extremely tragic
I do judge people who are in massive financial issues or people who are addicted to drugs

@supremelybaffled

There seem to be rather a lot of people these days who are all too ready and willing to judge others.

When I was a child, I was taught not to be judgemental towards other people, and my parents were very fond of the saying 'There, but for the grace of God, go I".

Judgement simply means to have an opinion. As society is expected to take care of children born into less than ideal circumstances why is it bad to have an opinion on something that affects us? This is different from judging someone’s hair, clothes or whatever.

No. I am a child of similar circumstances and however painful parts of my childhood were, I am grateful to my mother for the gift of my life. If no one had children outside of optimum circumstances, the contribution of many people made strong and resilient through adversity would be lost. My life has been useful, and is of value. I am happy and have made a positive impact on many others. I think there are no grounds to judge my mother for my existence.

I definitely judge someone close to me for intentionally bringing a child into this world while they are homeless & in a very volatile relationship.

I’m kind of in a similar situation. I’ve had a reproductive cancer(in remission now), and while I had fertility sparing surgery (leaving me with 1 ovary, 1 tube and my uterus) there’s a good chance if I got pregnant - especially if I needed IVF/hormone stimulation*, then the cancer could come back. If it came back, I could leave my child without a mother.

*I probably require IVF due to PCOS that was already an issue pre cancer, and these stimulations can set off ovarian cancers again….

But I’m still trying. It is a deeply held need of mine. Even if I only have one baby and let them take everything out after (so they don’t have to worry about the cancer coming back in the reproductive system). I feel like I need to have That.
I might die in pursuit of that but for me life isn’t worth living if I don’t get that.

But there are many childless women who had my cancer who chose to lose their entire reproductive system to prevent their deaths/reoccurrence. I understand both sides.

Tldr: I know how you feel and seriously offer my sympathies.

Currently pregnant at age 33.Wanted children for quite a while but didn't have own property,relationship hadn't settled with partner,income wasn't the best.When all of this was sorted I came of the pill.We both wanted to give our child best start.This was our choice of course however I do think there would be a lot more stable,happy children if they would have been considered carefully

I would, yes.

Yes, to be honest I would not judge you in the moment, but later on if your child later grew up and said how awful it was growing up without a mum and how awful it was knowing that their birth contributed to that, I would probably think that you had done the wrong thing. And that is a possibility.

There are other options in your situation - I know adoption is a difficult route and has its own challenges, but it might be better.

I would judge someone who set out to become pregnant in your circumstances if the father was not in agreement and prepared to step up as the main parent. I do think every child needs at least one competent parent about for the foreseeable future - and it’s also putting a huge burden on anyone to know that their arrival hastened their mother’s death or disability.

I wouldn’t judge for having a child in poverty. All of this is largely hypothetical because I wouldn’t assume any pregnancy was deliberate.

I don’t like being judgemental, but I am.