in being upset (pissed off) with parents who bring their obviuosly sick children to the nursery?

[QuintessentialShadowOfSnowball]

Shouldnt a child that is coughing his guts out be home? Or with rosy red feverish cheeks? Why do some parents think it is ok to lumber nursery staff with children so ill they need carrying around all the time? Why do they think it ok to keep passing on the germs to other peoples children?

My definition of bliss is being able to spend time with the most important thing in the world with me and being there for him when he needs me most. That's why I choose to have an evening job, but if I manage to find an affordable house in the next 3 years I won't be able to work evenings because I won't have my mum as a live-in childminder. I would then take advantage of the fact that the government will allow me to stay at home with him. I think that's perfectly fine considering it isn't going to be forever and I will go back to work once he is in school.

I wish I had a partner so I didn't have to rely on benefits but atm i don't so will take any help offered to me.

Out of interest why do you need a really rich husband in norway to not have to work? I know loads of mums who don't work but neither do there husbands have high paying jobs. I know we have child tax credit and child benefit but that doesn't amount to much its only about £60 a week which is a lot less then most people would earn if they went out to work.

sorry for the really bad english

I did not say really rich. I said well paid. Most jobs are. The point I was trying to make is there is no benefits system that will allow people to stay home and not work just because they dont want to work. One of the reasons the welfare state is so strong in Norway is that everybody contributes, by working. This way people can enjoy low taxes, good and modern hospitals (there is really no need for private healthcare), a good and equal education as everybody goes to their geographically nearest school, but millions are categorically not paid out to people who chose to not work because they dont feel like it. Everybody is needed. (There is a very good benefits system that will catch you if you have special needs, ill health, disabilities, etc)

Sadly, this means, if you are a single mum, you will be expected to join the workforce, childcare is not going to be a problem because of the way nurseries work, and nurseries are cheap, and as we have discovered, parental sick leave for children is paid.

I suppose, what I am discovering is that to me combining work and parenthood is a really big headache in this country, and it is made so difficult to be a working parent, it is surprising people even bother to try.

well that's exactly it. more people would try if it was worth going to work to then pay it all out on childcare. i know loads of people who work just to be able to pay for the childcare and have hardly anything left over. i could get childcare paid for cos i get working tax credit. both parents have to work 16 hours (or one parent if you're single) to get it but i don't know what the upper earning limit is. i t can't be that high else all these people wouldn't be shelling out for childcare. a lot of people want to work but actually can't afford to. if the government wants to get more people back to work they need to subsidise more childcare places.

QuintessentialShadow - forgive me (and please correct me) if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that Norway was able to have quite such a generous welfare state (including those wonderful nurseries) because it has so much oil wealth, and a small population to share it.

Of course, Norwegians work and contribute to society in that way. But they have an "added bonus" that other Western economies don't.

Spot on Anna and that is why the government is going to have to make some tough as well as unpalatable economic and social decisions in the future.

That is very true, the oil is the backbone, and the population is small. Even more important why verybody has to contribute. It just couldnt work if half the populatin was unemployed and/or on benefits. Migrant workers are needed on a big scale, nurses, carpenters, etc. Women are needed in the work force, so the state do what it can to ensure that women go back to work, and affordable subsidised childcare is part of that.

I dont know how it is in France, Anna, but I am beginning to think living here is quite hard, and tough for many, if you are a parent.

Yes Spokette, oil wont last for ever....

Ok last day of school for DS2 and the playground is a ghost town, One class had 4 kids in it .

Quintessential - I think that it is incredibly hard to make comparisons between one country and another because people's cultural expectations are so different.

France has long had a policy of encouraging people to have children by subsidising the cost of raising children (through tax concessions, child benefit, subsidised nurseries, tax-deductible nannies, early school etc). So there is more state support for parents than in most Western economies.

However, the French are also much more accepting of institutionalised, regulated and formulaic ways of living than many other cultures. Mothers don't generally seem to mind leaving their small children to the care of others - it is seen as quite normal for all members of a family to spend all day in a different institutional environment and to come together only in the evening. The concept of family life is different to the British concept of family life.

So - is it "easier" for parents here? Yes, as long as you buy into the institutionalised mindset. If you are a free thinker and believe that family life is a creative venture where bonds are built through shared activities, you will be very frustrated here - unless you are fortunate enough to be able to afford (and to have the strength of mind ) to stay at home or work part-time.

I have been reading through much of this in turn agreeing with either side of the debate - so I am not sure it is as black and white as some are making out. I am a sahm and my 3yo son only has 2 sessions a week at pre-school so this issue is barely relevant at present. I have kept ds at home several times in the last term with a cold and some parents may well have sent their child in - I am unsure of the policy so I have probably been overcautious.

However now I have a dilemma as ds has been off colour for a couple of days and yesterday presented all symptoms of Conjunctivitis - so I have bought the eye drops and kept ds off pre-school today. However the NHS direct site says that the Health Protection Agency (HPA) does not advise keeping children out of school for mild invective illnesses. However the chemist said I should keep him out.

I really want him to be able to attend the Pre-school christmas party tomorrow but I suppose I will not be able to let him - he is soo looking forward to it as well

I am not scared of a few infections - my children are very robust but no one wants their child to suffer - it is hard to know what is best every time - that is why we rely on 'expert' advice - which can be conflicting.

That is very interesting Anna.

Norway seem to partly fit in with the French instititutionalized mindset, but as the working day is relatively short, the family unit get a fair amount of time together after work/nursery/school. The weekends are also very much family time.

The flip side of the coin is that if you should choose to stay home or only work part time to be with your children more, there are not many daytime activities to take your kids to, such at mums and toddlers, or baby music classes, and soft play is an unknown factor alltogether. You get pizza restaurants, or cafes with fairly large play areas, but that is about it. You just dont have organized baby and toddler activities. People just go to the beach, or to the mountain, or forests... Create their own activities.

In a sense, this has derailed a bit. It is true that you cant compare cultures and countries direct due to the different mindsets and expectations, but at the same time it is useful to bring it in as it shows that it is possible to have it differently, but there is a cost to it, and I suppose too much would have to change in society as a whole.

Meanwhile, people struggle on and do as best they can. And, it is giving me for one, a headache.

My sister (also English, married to a Frenchman) has recently moved to Amsterdam, having previously been in Madrid.

She is very happy in the Netherlands where people generally seem to come home from work early, many mothers don't work or work part-time, and family life/time together is valued.

Her husband, however, was happier in Spain which was closer to the French culture of long working hours and lots of cheap domestic labour that provided childcare, giving parents their "freedom".

Difficult. I think it mostly is a headache to work out what is best for one's own family, given both one's material circumstances, cultural expectations and personal desires.

Certainly, as I age and have been exposed to more ways of thinking, I am aware that my own desires largely override cultural expectations and I don't have any hang-ups about living against the prevailing trends. But of course material circumstance allows me the luxury of real choice in the matter.

In France there is little in the way of mother and toddler groups, baby music etc.

This isn't true in Paris for English-speaking mothers as their is an association called Message that specifically provides support to mothers of young children.

Very bad

Wow - spectacular necroposting Mummy2Booke