We can't mention positives of Breastfeeding for fear of offending

[Silverclasp]

Recently there was an interesting thread about a husband not wanting his wife to Breastfeed (he wanted to give formula) posters were highlighting the positives of Breastfeeding (since this was the topic) but there was a response essentially saying that by pointing out the benefits that we are shaming non bf mothers.
It got me thinking that I actively don't speak about bf for this very reason, I feel like if the person I'm talking to doesn't bf it can be seen as "shaming" like I never post anything pro Breastfeeding on SM in case I offend someone. It's kind of ridiculous.
Interested in both sides of the argument.

So say I reposted an article on SM which stated that studies have indicated that breastfed babies have a larger thymus gland than formula fed babies and more tcells as a result. Would this be unreasonable and cause offence to non bf mothers?

RobinPenguins I’m not sure it does matter no. I haven’t done any research on that at all. Just in response to the OP that telling everyone about nutrition is pointless at this stage. We are all very well informed (I think) on that aspect. Like the example Thecurliestwurly offered and so many other PP’s there is so much more TO our feeding choices and ignoring that fact while shoving more ‘helpful nutrition’ info at us it at best, counterproductive.

Indeed, who can say that increasing breast feeding rates and the benefits associated with that would not have a negative impact elsewhere on women / children / wider society. Women are not stupid. We generally centre our children’s well-being before all else. If collectively we are making the choice to formula feed it is because at this moment in time, in the UK, considering all factors it is the best option as a WHOLE even if not nutritionally so.

I guess my question would be why are you posting it? What are you hoping it will achieve? Don’t mean that in an argumentative way, but I guess your intentions show if you are being unreasonable or not.

The short version is breastfeeding is not compatible with modern life. It works well for SAHMs, but not people like me who work FT and have had to struggle through

Not saying you're wrong but don't most people take maternity leave? I had to work from 2 weeks PP and still breastfed/pumped.

I think it's also good to say "you can do it" rather than be defeatist and say it's incompatible. Broadly, yes, but it's still possible for some

The pp who made the point about the breastfeeding relationship is absolutely right. If I had the choice between feeding my child formula from my boobs or breastmilk from a bottle, I’d definitely choose formula from my boobs, even though @Thecurliestwurly is totally right about all the downsides. It’s the feeling of closeness to my baby and everything that goes with that that makes it worthwhile for me. That is my own personal feeling about my own babies and my own circumstances, and not a comment on anyone else’s choices at all. However, in my experience saying anything about this does tend to infuriate people who haven’t breastfed.

@OlympicProcrastinator I really like the way you put that. I felt guilt for not breast feeding my second, but it was so difficult and I felt that it was having a massive impact on my first child and my mental health. So weighing everything up formula feeding felt the best option. Having read research and understanding that breast feeding does have an impact on babies health, but then also understanding the impact it would have on the development of my children if my mental health suffered and that of my elder child. I think most of us do everything we can to do the best for our children but every situation is different.

I had 9 months maternity leave with DC1, spent (or wasted as it turned out) a month and a half of it trying to make breastfeeding work, and ultimately it didn't. Then after that spent a bit longer trying to get back to feeling myself while FF.

@Popcornriver

Can I just ask the poster who said formula is harmful to clarify please? I read a lot on breast milk vs formula milk when deciding whether or not to breastfeed and only found 'formula can be harmful' when it related to making it incorrectly. Or of course where clean water was unavailable.

I'm not the poster. But I think it depends how you define "harm". Harm taken in a generally understood sense, then no, formula in the UK is not harmful - it's a nutritionally complete feeding substitute perfectly adequate for sustaining infants and babies allowing them grow in to healthy children and adults.

Harm is not the best word to use really as it's very emotive in common use.

If you are talking about 'harm' in a more scientifically specific context (e.g. less than ideal or not as intended), then there are 'harms' to gut flora, microbiome, the thymus glad etc. Which can have longer term concequences to health, particularly on a population level, which then impacts overall health care etc. But so do lots of things, so taken in isolation, the impact is likely to be minimal!

The short version is breastfeeding is not compatible with modern life. It works well for SAHMs, but not people like me who work FT and have had to struggle through
I just don’t think this is true and you can’t extrapolate from your experience to apply it to all breastfeeding any more than I can say I worked FT from 9 months and breastfed successfully til 2.5 years, therefore breastfeeding and FT work are perfectly compatible.

Breastfeeding and formula feeding threads always come down to personal experience and high-level arguments that don’t actually take into account the breadth and nuance of individual experience and circumstances, and that’s a large part of the paucity of support for breastfeeding in this country – it assumes the social support is there so a quick midwife visit will do and there you go, on your way, Tits McGee.

I knew the benefits I hated breastfeeding and it was affecting my mental health. Tbh I just don’t care how other people feed their kids as long as they are feeding them.

I don’t mind people talking about the benefits of breastfeeding, theres loads of upsides but not if you randomly start a convo with me about it - i refer you back to the “I don’t care” bit. in reference to childbirth, I also refer you back to “I don’t care” how you did it but I hope mum and baby were both well afterwards. I feel neither proud nor ashamed of the choices I made in relation to those things.

I would never judge and I think people sometimes feel judged, bit like talking to (some) vegans where you are expected to praise them and then bow your head in shame for not being one of them.

@Frezia

Breastfeeding rates are higher in developing countries than the developed. You don't need an expensive or elaborate healthcare support system to improve them. But you do need a culture with a positive attitude towards breastfeeding and a community you can draw knowledge and support from. All the educated midwives and accessible lactation consultants and amazing maternity/paternity benefits cannot replace that.

Brilliant post.

It’s cultural. Other cultures are openly dismissive of bottle feeding as its so uncommon in their culture. I spoke to a friend in another country in Europe about bottle feeding and she just said “mums don’t bottle feed here”.

@heliosunburg

The short version is breastfeeding is not compatible with modern life. It works well for SAHMs, but not people like me who work FT and have had to struggle through

Not saying you're wrong but don't most people take maternity leave? I had to work from 2 weeks PP and still breastfed/pumped.

I think it's also good to say "you can do it" rather than be defeatist and say it's incompatible. Broadly, yes, but it's still possible for some

My point was that I did do it though, for many years and still am currently. Yes I had maternity leave, but I worked long shifts and my children did not sleep well. It was fucking hard. It can be done, but it was at the detriment to my own wellbeing.

We are expected to breastfeed, but workplaces and wider society don't support it. For many, maternity leave is quite short and there is little advice about how to transition to work as a breastfeeding parent. I'm glad you had a good experience though, as it provides balance to my negative rantings.

@RobinPenguins what nonsense posting a positive article of the benefits of breastfeeding is not the same as ppl actively telling me they think me breastfeeding is icky or wrong. I wouldn't be offended to see a pro formula article and would be happy if it helped any mother feel better about their choice. A pro breastfeeding or pro formula article can help the person doing either one feel better about their choices and as we can see from this thread there are pros and cons on both sides but the OP is pointing out how when it comes to breastfeeding it's seen as a negative to share the pros, my experience is just showing how generally attitudes towards breastfeeding in my experience are still overall negative. It would be nice if both options could be seen more positive and women encouraged to feel good about whichever option they choose that is best for them.

@Silverclasp

I think one of the issues with the bfing is best campaign is the fact there's lots of confounding variables that will create the differences. In addition, it is a fact that you don't have 2 groups of people with bfing people being superior in terms of health. It is also fact that babies have died owing to malnutrition owing to inadequate bfing and a push to do this at the expense of actually feeding the baby.

Fed is best - it is that simple.

However, in my experience saying anything about this does tend to infuriate people who haven’t breastfed.

Perhaps because most of those people did want to, did feel the loss of the extra bonding which you were fortunate to benefit from and don't think they 'haven't' breast fed, but 'couldn't'. I really don't think that you saying that BF was a great experience for you infuriates people, it's using language like this which suggests that people had a choice which infuriates people. Maybe you don't actually think that and you've just chosen a bad turn of phrase but I think much more sensitivity is needed and if that were there, some more useful conversations could result.

@lawnotorder

But as an arthritic middle-aged asthmatic, it doesn't matter how determined to climb Everest I am, it won't happen. Determination alone will not cut it and some of the BF propaganda doesn't recognise that

But I don't think "I was determined to do X" means if you achieve something others don't were less determined.

Agree, so it is both determination and luck which makes the difference. Most of my friends were very much of that opinion when I struggled for months. I appreciated their support. If someone took credit for their determination without also recognising their luck, I think that's quite different.

I fall into the very small percentage of women who just don’t produce milk and was not able to breastfeed my daughter. I’m well aware of the benefits and would always shout it from the rooftops to a mother who is looking specifically for more information on breastfeeding or BF vs Formula. The majority of people know that it comes with a great deal of benefits.

However that said, I’ve written in posts and forums asking for BF experience/formula decision ect and the amount of cult like pro-breast feeders really does annoy me.

I’m pro breastfeeding; but I couldn’t do it. I had support, we tried and tried and when it got I the point where they were thinking of admitting her to hospital for her weight loss (IUGR baby who lost more weight after birth and never gained it back until we used formula) at that point we agreed that I simply can’t breastfeeding and that formula is best, for us. So for us, breast is not best.

I still consistently have “you should have been given more support” “you didn’t try hard enough” “formula is BARE MINIMUM” “only 2% of women actually CANT breastfeed, most just give up too early”

I can’t tell you how painful it was to get these comments when DD was a newborn. I tried to the best of my ability to BF her. I felt shamed to move into formula. My HV said that although breastfeeding will always be the recommended, it’s almost pushed too much now and all some people are doing are pushing mothers into PND by making them feel as if they haven’t done enough. Which is exactly how I felt.

Breastfeeding should be promoted; but I believe there should be way more support for the percentage of women who can’t breastfeed, and those who tried but moved over to formula because of stress, PND, pain ect. The women who tried, who really wanted it and really tried need more support than we get now

I’d think ‘where the fuck is a thymus gland?! then Google it. Then wonder why you care about this research other than to be preachy. Then inwardly roll my eyes and thank God my kids are way past that stage.

Eventually you’ll realise that good parenting goes way beyond breastfeeding for a bit and enlarging thymus glands.

Do you plan to put up research at every stage of your child’s development OP. Guaranteed way to get people to mute you.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil

I’d think ‘where the fuck is a thymus gland?! then Google it. Then wonder why you care about this research other than to be preachy. Then inwardly roll my eyes and thank God my kids are way past that stage.

Eventually you’ll realise that good parenting goes way beyond breastfeeding for a bit and enlarging thymus glands.

Do you plan to put up research at every stage of your child’s development OP. Guaranteed way to get people to mute you.

Exactly my thoughts. It really makes no difference many more things to worry about. Bottle or breast just so what you like and keep it to yourself !

@Frezia the reason women breastfeed more in developing countries isn’t culture, it’s because they have no alternative. Water isn’t safe for babies. This is a large part of the reason WHO and other agencies push breastfeeding so hard.

Please don’t present this as a pure positive. Trying to feed a baby in a developing country is no picnic.

But i bet you can't pick out the bottle fed babies from the breastfed babies in a class of 7 year olds, or 15 year olds. Some people post this as some sort of gotcha thinking they are clever. I think it is more about giving them what is nutritionally best for babies at the time though as in giving them the best start. Milk is the only form of nutrition babies get at the time. There are so many things that contribute to nutrition once they start eating and drinking other things.

If people don't want to breastfeed that's fine. If some people do that's fine. The problem is when someone does want to breastfeed and doesn't have access to support. I really struggled with breastfeeding with both babies. I was so lucky with my first because I had a midwife who showed me a "trick" for want of a better phrase which amazingly worked for us! And it took her literally no more than ten seconds to show me.

With my second I remembered the trick but still struggled so much. I remember crying in the early hours of the morning those first few weeks as it was so painful, my nipples were bleeding and I was just so tired. I explained this to various midwives who all worded it differently but gave me the message that if I couldn't feed my baby then I'd have to bottle feed. One told me to buy bottles and formula to keep in the house "because if you give up it will be in the middle of the night". In the end my grandmother recalled everything she tried for her 3 son's and eventually we cracked it. I still breastfeed her at 2

There should be no pressure to breast or bottle feed. But I've heard of more midwives who push mum's to bottle feed because the hospitals don't have the resources to help struggling mothers. There do seem to be quite a few people who seem to advocate bottle feeding so the dad can "bond with the baby". In my opinion that's often just misogyny because the dad can feed the baby then think he should be treated like a king for the day whilst the mother does everything else.

I do agree that we should be able to discuss the positives of breastfeeding. I don't necessarily think posting facebook statuses is appropriate though, it's just a bit weird. If you're wanting to help someone in particular, do it privately. If you'd like to help people, offer it and help people who would like it.

Breastfeeding should be promoted; but I believe there should be way more support for the percentage of women who can’t breastfeed I really agree with that. People forget some women just can't breastfeed or comment "it's a very small percentage". Well guess what? Some people are in that small percentage! One of my friends is and she felt similar to the poster I quoted. She really struggled and at one point she said she felt like less of a woman, which took her a while to overcome. The most support she received was an online group for women in the same situation which really helped.

If people don't want to breastfeed that's fine. If some people do that's fine. The problem is when someone does want to breastfeed and doesn't have access to support.

This is true. the whole narrative we're discussing, ie "helpful" posts about the benefits of breastfeeding on Facebook etc, doesn't really touch on this.

Women who are struggling to breastfeed don't need yet another argument as to why they should be doing it. The PR battle in favour of breastfeeding was comprehensively won decades ago. Everyone knows they ought to be doing it and hitting women over the head with it clearly isn't achieving much.

The real discussions are:

• Is the nutritional/health trade off for the baby worthwhile in terms of the impact on the mother if its difficult? (given that for many women the negative impacts of breastfeeding are significant). My personal view is that for many women the benefit is too marginal to be worth the stress and difficulty.

• If we decide as a society it is a worthwhile trade off, why are women not being better supported with it? It's not enough for nurses/midwives/health visitors just to shout about the benefits of breastfeeding. It needs practical advice and support.

@Puppyseahorse
The point was that many more women in developing countries are able to breastfeed even without access to great system support. They can because they're able to replace a lot of it through community resources and support, but for that to be available there has to be a culture where breastfeeding is visible, seen in a positive way and women are surrounded by other breastfeeding women from an early age.

Of course we need lactation consultants, tongue tie clinics and all the other system support features, just like women in developing countries should have those too. But claims that not having them is the reason why breastfeeding rates here are particularly poor, even compared to some other developed countries with safe drinking water, are only partially true IMO.

Because the main reason IMO is the attitudes in the society we live in, which isn't convinced breastfeeding is even a positive thing really, and certainly not something that should be talked about in the community even in a respectful way to all mothers. We won't be able to have adequate system support unless we can fix some of those attitudes.

I breastfed 2 children to toddlerhood and managed to breastfeed alongside work etc etc. It was a positive experience for me (although it's lovely to be able to have lemsip again!) I wouldn't go around posting breastfeeding posts on Facebook or trying to persuade people on Mumsnet to breastfeed. If someone asks for specific bf advice I'll give it the best I can though.

I think some people dismiss bf as an option due to their own culture which I personally think is a shame as it should be an option but I don't think people preaching on Facebook and Mumsnet will ever increase BF rates.