We can't mention positives of Breastfeeding for fear of offending

[Silverclasp]

Recently there was an interesting thread about a husband not wanting his wife to Breastfeed (he wanted to give formula) posters were highlighting the positives of Breastfeeding (since this was the topic) but there was a response essentially saying that by pointing out the benefits that we are shaming non bf mothers.
It got me thinking that I actively don't speak about bf for this very reason, I feel like if the person I'm talking to doesn't bf it can be seen as "shaming" like I never post anything pro Breastfeeding on SM in case I offend someone. It's kind of ridiculous.
Interested in both sides of the argument.

So say I reposted an article on SM which stated that studies have indicated that breastfed babies have a larger thymus gland than formula fed babies and more tcells as a result. Would this be unreasonable and cause offence to non bf mothers?

I think someone who chooses to do it without it should be proud of themselves.

There we go again with that (what I'd say is) naive belief that much of this stuff is a choice. I think that is the nub of the problem here. IMHO you are overestimating how much choice people can really make in extreme situations. I didn't choose not to have an epidural with my second, I was just able to cope with the (much lower level of) pain.

Why do you consider her being proud of that as somehow taking away from other mothers?

Because she puts that down to her 'determination'. When women's births don't go to plan, it really isn't because they weren't 'determined' enough. It's because of body/baby issues that they have no control over.

I think someone who chooses to do it without it should be proud of themselves.

Yes, I think you are right here. But as an arthritic middle-aged asthmatic, it doesn't matter how determined to climb Everest I am, it won't happen. Determination alone will not cut it and some of the BF propaganda doesn't recognise that. IMO, anything which, in this day and age, tries to increase rates of BF by sharing information about its benefits is part of the problem. It is not based on an understanding of what the challenge actually is and it would be like incessantly telling me how lovely it is at the top of Everest, sharing pictures of the view, telling me about the buzz you get when you make it to the top. I might well believe all of that but clearly it makes it no more likely that this will increase my determination to the degree that I can get to the top.

But as an arthritic middle-aged asthmatic, it doesn't matter how determined to climb Everest I am, it won't happen. Determination alone will not cut it and some of the BF propaganda doesn't recognise that

But I don't think "I was determined to do X" means if you achieve something others don't were less determined.

Can I just ask the poster who said formula is harmful to clarify please? I read a lot on breast milk vs formula milk when deciding whether or not to breastfeed and only found 'formula can be harmful' when it related to making it incorrectly. Or of course where clean water was unavailable.

@shrunkenhead I had an almost identical experience. Despite trying absolutely everything and engaging with all the breastfeeding support available, I just didn't produce enough milk. Formula literally saved my sanity and my baby's life. If I hadn't FF she would have simply starved to death...which, ironically, would be the "biologically normal" thing to happen...survival of the fittest and all that.

OP, I wouldn't be offended at your post but I would inwardly roll my eyes. After my BF experience I did a LOT of research. There are thousands of women affected by low supply, which is one of the main reasons for quitting BF. No amount of information or links to studies will change that. I also find it ironic that BF advocates are so keep to "inform" women, yet all of the ones I dealt with during my BF days were uninformed about the issue of low supply, or didn't want to acknowledge it was a thing. Their advice was to keep expressing (even though it was making no difference and doesn't work for many women), or to co-sleep (very dangerous given how exhausted I was). A lot of their other "information" was also not proven by science but more like old wives tales...including the advice given to me by the hospital breastfeeding co-ordinator about taking certain herbal supplements to increase supply (not evidence-based, and didn't work).
There is also no study out there that definitely proves being BF has a significant impact on a person's health outcomes over their lifetime, compared to FF, when you control for other factors.
Research into BFing in general is lacking, as it's a "women's issue" that was neglected by the male dominated medical profession until recently. Many of the studies are inconclusive, use self-selective or not large enough sample sizes, or only show a correlation, not causation.
If you enjoy BFing and it's working for you, great. Crack on, feel proud of yourself, whatever. Yes, it's natural and biologically normal, but biology and nature don't always work the way they're meant to. If a mother isn't able to BF for whatever reason or it's affecting her mental health, or simply doesn't want to, then FF is a perfectly healthy way of feeding her baby too.
It's the patronising attitude that FF mums are uninformed and need to be educated that winds people up, which is why there's the backlash.

@Popcornriver That's because it's utter nonsense. There is zero harm caused by formula, in developed countries with a clean water supply.
Thing is, if someone is so invested in BF and has gone to significant lengths to do it then they need to convince themselves it's the absolute best thing to do and the alternatives are bad. I've seen this happen so many times.

Being proud of yourself for having a straightforward birth is just ridiculous though.

Saying something like "gas and air was fab for me. Amy, you should really try it when you're in Labour" or some such isn't really bragging. Now substitute gas and air for breastfeeding. It's not shaming anyone, it's not an attack on anyone.

Most people don't approve of shaming others choices especially for something as insignificant as infant feeding. But fgs, it's lie you can't even talk about it without someone getting touchy.

If you couldn't or didn't want to fine, but it's almost as if some people who argue fed is best (it is, ofc) don't even believe it themselves

Formula is not harmful. It’s disingenuous to say that FF mums shouldn’t feel guilty while also implying they are harming their babies.

Shit like that is why people think BF mums are evangelical.

@TheKeatingFive

Why do you consider her being proud of that as somehow taking away from other mothers?

Because she puts that down to her 'determination'. When women's births don't go to plan, it really isn't because they weren't 'determined' enough. It's because of body/baby issues that they have no control over.

I think it's fine for her to say that for her, it was down to determination. Women shouldn't be afraid of sharing their own personal experience for fear someone else will read far more into it that they intended because they feel (wrongly!) ashamed or judged for not being able (or choosing not) to breastfeed.

We need to be kinder to ourselves and not constantly infer judgement/criticism where none is intended.

I think it's fine for her to say that for her, it was down to determination.

That's not really what she's saying though.

She's downplaying 'luck' and upgrading 'determination'. But in reality, you only ever have the type of birth your body/baby allows. This idea that it comes down to a superior mindset or 'determination' isn't the reality, despite what those who have straightforward births sometimes believe.

I didn't breast feed, I did try with my first but I found it too difficult and I was exhausted so I bottle fed and am happy with my choice, it doesn't offend me in the slightest when people talk about breast feeding and it's benefits though

I did some research into this a few years ago. This is what I concluded in a (very summarised) version.

The UK is culturally incompatible with breast feeding and is unique in this respect. (Other countries may also be culturally incompatible but UK culture is unique)

When a woman makes a decision about feeding their baby, nutrition is a single factor that is considered. Yet there are so very many other factors that go into the decision, both conscious and unconscious. By focusing purely on the nutritional aspect, healthcare professionals are failing to address other factors that contribute to our low breast feeding rates. Examples (in no particular order)

Peer group expectation
Societal expectations of modesty.
Familial influences and expectations

Peer group culture & experience
Religious / cultural expectations.
Sexual connotations around breasts.
Class.
Work / labour both in and out of the home.
Male support / lack of support both in the home and wider society.
Money.
Professional support.
Geography / history (where is the woman located, what past experiences influence decision making)
Popular culture / media influences.
Safety (does the woman feel safe and able to make a free choice and carry out actions within her family / community)
Community / family support.

There’s loads more but don’t want to waffle on or bang on about individual points.

The main point is nutrition is a single factor in a decision that is impacted by a huge number of wider factors. These other influences are both conscious and unconscious. Focussing on nutrition (which pretty much everyone has the info on) is unhelpful as the UK is not culturally accommodating to breastfeeding as a whole.

The UK is culturally incompatible with breast feeding and is unique in this respect. (Other countries may also be culturally incompatible but UK culture is unique)

This is very true and something the nhs absolutely fails to take on board.

Sorry I repeated some there and a random break appeared!

I breastfed both my children. but I had a lot of pressure not to in the form of MIL / acquaintances made comments, i had articles sent to me basically saying all my choices were wrong from PIL 😂 I stopped at 10 months not because I thought 10 months was enough but more because of the social pressure I felt before returning to work and not feeding over a year old etc second time around my DD is now 19 months and I'm still feeding her morning abs evening, there is very much a sense of shock from people that I should have stopped by now when I explain why I'm not drinking etc so OP I would find this article helpful although I'm past generally caring what other people think these days thank god.

I truly can't understand why so many women are so caught up in how other women feed their children. Not your body, not your baby, quite literally the definition of nothing to do with you.
OP, do you think that by posting a study on SM, women reading it will go 'oh, goodness, I wasn't going to BF but now I know my babies thymus gland will be larger, I'll rethink that decision?'. No, of course not.
Women do and don't breastfeed for a multitude of very personal reasons that are - I'll repeat - nothing to do with anyone else.
Rather than ramming the benefits of breastfeeding down pregnant women's throats, and how natural and easy it is, the industry would do better to provide support once the baby arrives. Breastfeeding is fucking hard - I know about 3 women who found it easy. Your nipples will be annihilated, the baby feeds CONSTANTLY, they may not latch properly, tongue tie is a thing, your milk may not come in. NOBODY prepares you for the realities of breastfeeding. Nobody. If they focused on that - and the things that can be done to help - rather than just pumping out the benefits over and over and over again, we'd have much higher breastfeeding rates. Ironically.

The UK is culturally incompatible with breast feeding and is unique in this respect. (Other countries may also be culturally incompatible but UK culture is unique)

But does that…matter? Is there evidence that outcomes for UK children that can be directly linked to bf are worse in the UK than comparable nations? If there isn’t, perhaps we should just chill out about it because it doesn’t really matter. I was gutted not to be able to bf. But that was wholly because I’d been convinced that it was so important, so critical for my child’s health and our bond. If I’d known the actual facts I don’t think I’d have experienced those negative emotions and would have just cracked on with doing what was right for us because really, it wasn’t that important. I was only grieving for a bf relationship I couldn’t have because I thought that relationship was so crucial and important and I was missing out by not having it.

Thanks for posting about this OlympicProcrastinator. I did type a long post about my experiences, but lost it.

The short version is breastfeeding is not compatible with modern life. It works well for SAHMs, but not people like me who work FT and have had to struggle through

I have worked FT after each child and breastfed one until 3.5 and one is still going now at 2.5. I worked 14 hour shifts with my first on 3 hrs sleep as breastfed babies generally do not sleep well, or not in my case at least. I had to pump on my breaks during these shifts while eating my lunch and my colleagues walking in on me.

Breastfeeding is a limiting thing to do, especially in the early stages and the advice is poor, particularly around weaning off the breast. The only reason I did it with baby number 2 was I felt guilty for doing it for so long with my first. I thought it would be a different experience the second time around, but it wasn't and was worse. FWIW, they both latched perfectly on day one, it's just the general demands of breastfeeding that I found difficult.

I would love to do research on this myself, as I do feel passionately about expectant mothers having a realistic expectation of it and changing our expectations of mothers too, so that breastfeeding is a more viable option.

Working parents are very stretched generally and I think you just can't expect breastfeeding to fit with this.

Formula is certainly harmful globally, that can’t be disputed. I think unicef estimate about 1million infants per year are killed by unsafe formula use. That could be no access to safe water, watering down formula (this does happen in the U.K. too because of food poverty), Chinese milk scandal etc.

In the developed world (for want of a better term) it really depends which way you look at it. For instance, we all prefer to say ‘breastfed infants have less gastro illness and lower risk of sids’ yet some will undoubtedly hear ‘formula fed infants have more gastro illness and higher risk of sids’.There have been a few scandals where large batches of formula were contaminated in the EU market, and the ingredients are purchased on the global market wherever is cheapest, so not as tightly regulated as people think. As formula feeding is the norm in the U.K. we should probably be using that as the base, however clearly breastfeeding is the bio norm and some people will always use that as the baseline. I don’t think it’s helpful to refer to formula as ‘harmful’. Most ff infants will be absolutely fine and yes they will all be made from fish fingers and haribo by they time they’re 5 s a pp pointed out. however I think the nhs should do a lot more education on formula ie. you don’t need to buy the most expensive brand, you need to store and make correctly. I see praise for perfect prep machines time and time again and yet the nhs is very clear that they don’t meet safely standards. Lots of people don’t understand that you’re sterilising the formula, not the water! There are no comparable risks to breastmilk clearly but I certainly don’t think it’s helpful to describe formula as ‘harmful’.

@MozzarellaMonster

I breastfed both my children. but I had a lot of pressure not to in the form of MIL / acquaintances made comments, i had articles sent to me basically saying all my choices were wrong from PIL 😂 I stopped at 10 months not because I thought 10 months was enough but more because of the social pressure I felt before returning to work and not feeding over a year old etc second time around my DD is now 19 months and I'm still feeding her morning abs evening, there is very much a sense of shock from people that I should have stopped by now when I explain why I'm not drinking etc so OP I would find this article helpful although I'm past generally caring what other people think these days thank god.

That’s shit of your MIL and acquaintances. So it’s really surprising you’d want formula feeding mothers to experience the same social pressure from the other side.

@Thecurliestwurly

I've extended breastfed two kids for at least 2.5 years each and my biggest annoyance is that nobody discusses the negatives of breastfeeding. And there are a lot of them!

I had an easy ride starting breastfeeding, but it's a shit experience most of the time. Some of my issues are

-shit sleep
-no help from partner for nightfeeds
-not being able to go anywhere without the baby in the early stages if they refuse bottle
-cluster feeding spells when young
-biting when they are older
-People being arseholes about you breastfeeding and saying you are 'making a rod for your own back' and all that crap
-It's also really hard to stop a habit in a child that is used to having it there all of the time, particularly in the night, but no advice as to how you can wean off breast - only 'dont offer, don't refuse' which is probably the most useless advice ever.
-people who have never breastfed telling you that you can just tell the child no When you want to wean (can't do this without a massive meltdown, which I don't have the time or energy to deal with as a FT working parent
-did I mention the complete lack of pumping facilities/spaces in workplaces too?

The reason so many give up early is nobody forewarns people that it is quite hard sometimes. I think we actually need to be honest about breastfeeding and understand it is not always compatible with modern life/working mothers. We need to encourage mix feeding as a solution, instead of a formula vs breast approach.

Given that I've spent six years of my life breastfeeding, I consider myself a well experienced breastfeeder and this is my biggest frustration. It's become a badge of honour among some women, who only preach about the benefits, but don't understand that for a lot of women (even ones like me who have breastfed a lot) it is a negative experience. So even people like me would be annoyed at the preaching of the benefits without being honest about the negatives too.

Totally agree.

I'm also a long term breastfeeder. I know, understand and appreciate the benefits of breastfeeding. But it ain't half shit at times!

[quote Silverclasp]@Bunnycat101 I agree with you.

I have such respect for women who have given birth without pain relief though, My god I was induced and lasted only 2 hours of contractions before I was screaming for the epidural.
I def wouldn't be offended if someone posted a study that showed the benefits of an unmedicated birth, I made my decision at the time and it was right for me.[/quote]
Why? I have birth without pain relief. It was absolute hell. I should have had pain relief. Might have prevented the PTSD I got. My decision was not right for me but by the time I asked for pain relief it was too late (it wasn't, but that's what they told me).

I think it's fine for her to say that for her, it was down to determination

I agree

She's downplaying 'luck' and upgrading 'determination'

Is she? Luck plays into everything; if you win the gold medal, get that job, buy that house. Doesn't mean you weren't determined.