We can't mention positives of Breastfeeding for fear of offending

[Silverclasp]

Recently there was an interesting thread about a husband not wanting his wife to Breastfeed (he wanted to give formula) posters were highlighting the positives of Breastfeeding (since this was the topic) but there was a response essentially saying that by pointing out the benefits that we are shaming non bf mothers.
It got me thinking that I actively don't speak about bf for this very reason, I feel like if the person I'm talking to doesn't bf it can be seen as "shaming" like I never post anything pro Breastfeeding on SM in case I offend someone. It's kind of ridiculous.
Interested in both sides of the argument.

So say I reposted an article on SM which stated that studies have indicated that breastfed babies have a larger thymus gland than formula fed babies and more tcells as a result. Would this be unreasonable and cause offence to non bf mothers?

I think it's important to be sensitive. Studies show that a huge number of women give up breastfeeding before they want to due to difficulties with it (pain, lack of support, lack of information etc). That means lots of women do have a sensitivity around having 'failed' to breastfeed. You wouldn't want to make that worse by posting articles waxing lyrical about how amazing breastfeeding is.

Very few women formula feed because they think it's a better nutritional choice for their baby than breastfeeding, so any articles you post are unlikely to be informative and are just more likely to make people feel bad.

There are lots of breastfeeding support groups on Facebook etc where you can definitely share interesting articles with an audience where they will be welcome, so I would stick to those.

Silverclasp Re pain relief, I really wouldn’t have respect for people that manage without. I had one with all the drugs and one with none. The birth with no pain relief was just easier than the other one- I didn’t realise how far I was gone and even read my toddler a bedtime story during contractions. They weren’t the same births and I wasn’t better at managing or did anything different. I was just luckier.

Quoting you OP: "Babies saliva goes back through the nipple and is essentially analysed by the woman's body and if virus etc are detected breastmilk is changed accordingly. It's amazing."

The paper, to be clear, supports the fact breastfeeding has beneficial effects on the baby's innate immune system and microbiota. It says nothing whatsoever about nipples, viruses or changes in breastmilk.*

Yep, it's what I mentioned in my post, there's loads of myths about breastfeeding that are posted on insta, Facebook and elsewhere with no grounding in science.

The whole culture around feeding needs changing in this country, i just think when the vast majority formula feed yet feel upset and shame somethings going wrong. Why not just be open, supportive, and encouraging of either way to feed, and women can make informed choices about what's best for them? My friend was told after leaving intensive care after having her baby why doesn't she Google how to artificially feed as they don't support that here. In what way is that useful to someone who literally nearly died during child birth, missed the first few days of her babies life, and because of the damage to her body had the choice taken away from her? If someone in that position is treated like that, no wonder people feel the guilt and shame embedded in them, even though the vast majority formula feed and its perfectly fine. If conversations were more open I reckon more would consider breastfeeding, plus it could be spoken about without people feeling attacked.

It's such an emotive subject to many its no wonder emotions run high.

I read an article once that was looking at the reasons why women choose to breastfeed or continue despite months of benefits and “health benefits for the baby” was actually far down the list of those reasons.

I found that really bizarre as it was the benefits they were the driving force behind my decision.

The biggest deciding factor was that they simply wanted a breastfeeding relationship with their baby. I think that’s why it can be so emotive, because some women feel they of breastfeeding doesn’t work out they’ve lost a form of relationship they deeply wanted.

I agree with a previous poster….providing knowledge about medical benefits of breast milk isn’t what’s going to improve breast feeding rates, it’s the provision of easily accessible professional support.

I breastfed both of mine (now teens) well into toddlerhood. It definitely wasn't perceived as a positive thing and, to be honest, I didn't know much about the health benefits but it just seemed to work at the time.

Even when they were babies, I felt some pressure to stop despite the fact that it was working out. Some of it came from fellow parents who didn't agree with breastfeeding or who couldn't breastfeed. Others from the older generation and even my dh when they passed one.

I think the angle you need to take is in normalising it and taking away the weird earth mother or prissy perfect parent image. I was neither. I wasn't even a particularly good parent at the time

Being proud of yourself for having a straightforward birth is just ridiculous though. Birth is a lottery. It's not an achievement to have a vaginal birth without pain relief, any more than it is to have an elective section. It means that you had a birth that was luckily free of complications.

And this is the issue. Other women creating a societal expectation of what birth and raising a newborn is supposed to be, i.e a magical experience, with a straightforward vaginal birth and breastfeeding being the pinnacle. the suggestion therefore being that any woman who didn't "achieve" that didn't do her best, didnt try hard enough, wasn't mentally resilient enough.

It's bollocks, and it's all perpetuated by other women. Like the op.

BM IMO is the better option out of the two for lots of reasons- bonding, antibodies to name a couple.
I didn't BF either of mine. My milk didn't become established. I had a traumatic birth with the first, managed to get DD latched on within 5 mins of her being born but then was so exhausted I physically couldn't keep my eyes open.
This meant that the nurses would take DD away and feed her formula and let me rest. After a couple of days she wasn't interested in breast and just kicked off if offered. Because I'd written it down on my birth plan that I wanted to exclusively BF the midwife told me I wouldn't be allowed home until I could do it. This then just crushed me. I cried my eyes out. My DH said we'd be formula feeding as he wanted me out of there (as did I) and we were discharged.

With DS I had a much easier birth (planned c section) but I was so frightened to try again in case the midwifes insisted I stay for days on end in order to establish BF that I gave him formula straight away.
Do I regret it? A little.
My mother BF me, I have asthma, had epilepsy,eczema etc etc.
My DD has no health issues whatsoever, my DS has unfortunately inherited my lungs. But doesn't have my other ailments.

Back to your point or should you have posted it? I think as an awareness thing there was no harm in it, however I can see why it could potentially get peoples backs up who have not had a positive experience.

I felt that I'd failed as so wanted to breastfeed, but only lasted weeks. I genuinely didn't have enough milk - my baby's weight dropped significantly so that we had to see a paediatrician - advice was to just keep feeding....I couldn't even Express more than 1 oz.
After 10 weeks I buckled and asked dh to buy some formula. I was so scared anyone would find out and think I was poisoning my baby. I think what is important to remember is that for new mothers it's a highly emotive issue at a v difficult time. Their bodies are healing, they are sleep deprived, they may have PND....
Prior to birth I was totally gungho to BF and couldn't see why I wouldn't. Afterwards I took every thing - from Breastfeeding posters on maternity dept walls - personally. Like it was actually directed at me and me alone.
As a pp said there are two camps - those that choose not to and those that really want to but (for whatever reason) just can't.

Sensitivity around both is needed.

I see young mums worn out with cluster feeding and sleep deprivation, and frankly don't believe the game is worth the candle.

You think breastfeeding in bed next to baby is more tiring then faffing with bottles?

And if you're right that it is, surely that's more reason to applaud these misters for sticking with it?

I get your points but after I had my daughter I kept thinking of my grandma giving birth to a giant headed baby after a 16 hour labour in a time when baby and mother mortality was so high. She must have been so scared, and I do have respect for her, I know women had no choice but because I found it so difficult i find it awesome that they did it without pain relief. Good to know every birth is different though maybe I'll be able to handle the pain next time (doubt it though haha)

I suppose it’s the same reason why I wouldn’t post about the massive benefit of bottle feeding being that the mother isn’t tied to the baby and all the night feeds. Ultimately the subliminal message is that I, the poster, am trying to get people to bottle feed.

No different to saying how easy your vaginal birth/c section was and yet people do that. I wouldn't mind someone telling me how convenient formula is for them, truly. But maybe it's easy for me to say because breastfeeding/expressing worked out for me so I'm don't feel jealous or that it's a put down

Being proud of yourself for having a straightforward birth is just ridiculous though. Birth is a lottery. It's not an achievement to have a vaginal birth without pain relief, any more than it is to have an elective section. It means that you had a birth that was luckily free of complications.

I think it's ok for women to be proud of giving birth if they want to, whichever way they did. People are proud of all sorts of things that are often just luck eg their bum or their hair.

@Chichichiwawa

Being proud of yourself for having a straightforward birth is just ridiculous though. Birth is a lottery. It's not an achievement to have a vaginal birth without pain relief, any more than it is to have an elective section. It means that you had a birth that was luckily free of complications.

And this is the issue. Other women creating a societal expectation of what birth and raising a newborn is supposed to be, i.e a magical experience, with a straightforward vaginal birth and breastfeeding being the pinnacle. the suggestion therefore being that any woman who didn't "achieve" that didn't do her best, didnt try hard enough, wasn't mentally resilient enough.

It's bollocks, and it's all perpetuated by other women. Like the op.

I had a straight forward birth despite the fact that I had my hospital ringing me constantly because my baby didn't come on her due date, meaning I spent the last 5 days of my pregnancy frightened and upset. I am enormously proud of myself for sticking to my guns and having my baby at home, for making an informed decision about what I wanted and sticking to it.

I also have breastfed my daughter and that was also straight forward in the sense that I didn't have bleeding or mastitis, but psychologically for months it was extremely hard. Hard on me, hard on my relationship. So I am extremely proud of myself for managing to stick with it even though I found it hard.

That doesn't take away from what anyone else has decided to do. But I do deserve to be proud and i don't feel I was just "lucky" it took a lot of determination for me to do. Perhaps it comes more easily to some others I have no idea. But the point is, I'm ALLOWED to feel proud of myself because it was fucking hard and nobody else is going to be proud of me, are they?

You think breastfeeding in bed next to baby is more tiring then faffing with bottles?

I found I wasn’t sleeping at all with the baby next to me dreading them waking up and going through the trauma and pain of the next breast feed.
But I didn’t find bottles a faff either, just a welcome relief.

Its not offensive in of itself to share facts about the benefits of breastfeeding. That said I'm not convinced it's a good way to improve BF rates. I thought the statistics showed that the majority of new mums would start breastfeeding but then most of them would later stop, this implies they know the benefits as it's what made them start but that wasn't enough to help them continue.

I just hate the whole way we go about it. Its like we ramp up the guilt by forcing information onto women whether they want it or not but don't actually warn them about what it can really be like "in case it puts them off". Result, traumatized mums with painful nipples or supply problems who feel they have to keep going or else it will harm their baby.

For every fact sheet about IQ, infection or cancer I'd rather have had honest information about nipple pain and cluster feeding so I'd have been better prepared.

I had a straight forward birth despite the fact that I had my hospital ringing me constantly because my baby didn't come on her due date, meaning I spent the last 5 days of my pregnancy frightened and upset. I am enormously proud of myself for sticking to my guns and having my baby at home, for making an informed decision about what I wanted and sticking to it.

I don't think that's the issue, there are times when making an informed decision or having a medical one thrust upon you is for the best- literally lifesaving yet women are often still made to feel like its a second rate birth. It's great for those who have had the births they wanted, but it's not superior to anyone else, and not always a case of sticking to your guns.

I had a straight forward birth despite the fact that I had my hospital ringing me constantly because my baby didn't come on her due date, meaning I spent the last 5 days of my pregnancy frightened and upset. I am enormously proud of myself for sticking to my guns and having my baby at home, for making an informed decision about what I wanted and sticking to it.

I’m proud of myself for setting aside my original preferences for “what I wanted” and making an informed decision to do some things I perhaps didn’t want to enable my baby to be born safely.

So much of all of this is about chance and luck. Most women are not high risk or otherwise because of anything within their control in any way. Why feel proud about luck?

@RedRobyn2021 of course it was luck. Luck that during labour neither you nor your baby were in distress, necessitating medical intervention. Luck that your baby had no feeding issues. Not to piss on your chips but you eon the lottery in that sense. A woman whose baby’s heart rate dipped during contractions and who needed to be rushed to hospital for an accelerated birth to save the baby, was no less determined than you.

[quote Silverclasp]@MrsSchrute I saw the article and thought it was interesting and sent it to my friends who are bf but didn't post it on sm for the reason that you outlined.
Just with the Breastfeeding rates as low as they are maybe if there was more discussions about the positives then maybe more people might choose to feed? I lived in Sweden for a while and there bf rates are really high. They have lots of TV campaigns about the positives of bf. I feel like that wouldn't happen here in case it offended ppl[/quote]
See, you're coming over all evangelical.

Mothers are surrounded by feeding advice and they can make up their own minds. They don't need you posting all over SM unless it'd a bf forum.

And I breastfed all mine. My choice

But I do deserve to be proud and i don't feel I was just "lucky" it took a lot of determination for me to do

What about the women whose babies got into difficulty during Labour and interventions were needed to save their lives? Were they just not 'determined' enough in your eyes?

That doesn't take away from what anyone else has decided to do. But I do deserve to be proud and i don't feel I was just "lucky" it took a lot of determination for me to do.

The problem is that this can sound like you're saying that mothers who don't, have less determination. I had a very large amount of determination to BF both of mine but that still did not work. I spent hours researching how to, pumped incessantly to try and get my boobs to respond (as per advice - 4 hours a day to start with), begged for multiple appointments with a lactation consultant, tried a million different nipples creams (I'm allergic to lanolin), tried various teas to stimulate milk production etc. I was very determined. I got dribbles out with my first and in the end decided to just give her whatever drops came out as maybe anything would be a positive for her immune system. Sustenance was through formula though. 24 hrs after she was born, drs and midwives advised we had to cup feed her as no-one could get her to latch on. She was not interested and would sit there next to my nipple doing nothing. Even when I tried putting it in her mouth - nothing. My breasts never engorged and did not change size.

I don't mean to belittle your efforts. I know many people who had to try very hard to get feeding established. They worked hard. But alongside pride in your determination you should also be grateful for the stroke of much which meant your determination could be effective. You're not 'just' lucky, but you are lucky.

@TheKeatingFive this is exactly the problem that lady can't be proud of herself? She could have opted for a hospital birth and epidural but she didn't. Why do you consider her being proud of that as somehow taking away from other mothers?
We all have privilege in some regards but does that mean we can't be proud of ourselves for anything. I recently completed my PHD.... but I'm white, straight, come from a secure home, comfortable financially, don't have any intellectual disabilities so therefore I shouldn't be proud?

I had a straight forward birth, baby was in a good position and it was quick, but I still took the epidural because I didn't want to be in pain. I think someone who chooses to do it without it should be proud of themselves.

I think everybody knows about the benefits of breastfeeding, so it can come across as preachy.
I get that we have a poor breastfeeding rate in this country, but I don’t think it’s because not enough people have heard “breast is best!”
I think it’s because the support isn’t adequate. I got told my son’s latch was perfect, even though he kept pulling off and screaming and he was basically chewing my boob off. When I expressed a desire to pump instead, a health visitor implied that this would damage my “bond” with my son (how I wish I could give her a slap now- saying that to a crying new mum with bleeding tits, but I was too hormonal and upset to be anything but crushed by it).

And for the topic of unmediated birth, I never saw birth as something I had to endure, and pain relief as a sign that I couldn’t hack it. If I broke my leg I wouldn’t demand that I received no pain relief so that I could “feel it”.
I got an epidural because I wanted one.

I agree about labour being a lottery. I felt like I was on a runaway train and I had an 'easy' textbook birth. If I'd ended up with a CS instead that would have just been the route the train took.

What about the women whose babies got into difficulty during Labour and interventions were needed to save their lives? Were they just not 'determined' enough in your eyes?

I think this is where the contention is.

If someone says they were determined to to pass their driving test or climb Everest & they did I don't think that means others who fail to pass their test or die climbing a mountain are less determined.

I don't see me failing my driving test & taking ages to pass as a lack of determination, it's just one of those things. I was determined, that's why I kept going!