Channel crossings

[Tevion28]

Whats your thoughts on this are these people really desperate fleeing worn torn countries do you feel sorry for them etc

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@Sam020
This is not a small country. It could have been a rich country but it's completely mismanaged. I'm honestly tired of the rhetoric around asylum seekers. These are very few people. They are not going to rob us of our resources. That's the government's job

The U.K. is not a small country?! There are 77 countries which are larger than the U.K. You are roughly the same size as Guinea. New Zealand? bigger. Ecuador? Bigger. Phillipines? Bigger Morocco? Twice the size. Chile and Zambia? Three times the size! Ethiopia? Five times bigger!

And the asylum seekers are not “very few people” .....

You need to really look at an accurate map of the world which doesn’t Center London in the middle and draw the U.K. island as if it were as big as Greenland and read about the millions of refugees/displaced people currently looking for asylum.[/quote]
Millions of asylum seekers? Are you being sarcastic?

The number of pending asylum seekers is less than 100000 currently. Don't let facts get in the way of your prejudice though.

@Doodar

how about all the northern towns filled with male asylum seekers/refugees? they'll never work or marry and have kids as they're muslim and will never integrate.

And some people still genuinely think that the UK is one of the most tolerant countries in the world...you just need to allow this thread to know that's not the case.

@Sam020
I’m not being sarcastic. You are clearly only listing the number of pending asylum applications with the U.K.

This does not represent the full number of refugees currently seeking asylum. Which is currently 26 million people according to Amnesty International. And what I was referring to. You clearly do not understand the scale of what is happening.
www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-migrants/global-refugee-crisis-statistics-and-facts/

@Sam020
You have been overstating the size and wealth of the U.K. while understating the worlds refugee problem and the UKs own overpopulation problem. Why can’t you look at this issue more objectively?

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@Sam020
I’m not being sarcastic. You are clearly only listing the number of pending asylum applications with the U.K.

This does not represent the full number of refugees currently seeking asylum. Which is currently 26 million people according to Amnesty International. And what I was referring to. You clearly do not understand the scale of what is happening.
www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-migrants/global-refugee-crisis-statistics-and-facts/[/quote]
The link you posted clearly states that there are 26 million globally. Globally. Do you think they are all knocking on the door of the UK?

Are we talking about different topics? Of course there are millions of asylum seekers Globally. A fraction of these try to come to the UK. A fraction that is not going to rob us blind.

Turkey takes millions of refugees by the way. I don't think they are considered to be very rich.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@Sam020
You have been overstating the size and wealth of the U.K. while understating the worlds refugee problem and the UKs own overpopulation problem. Why can’t you look at this issue more objectively?[/quote]
Why are you talking about global refugees? What's that got to do with channel crossings?

my point is we're creating ghettos of immigrants, shipped out of expensive areas, mainly to the north of England. I don't think turkey keeps immigrants in the same way we do.

In this thread: a load of intolerant people get their knickers in a twist when it’s pointed out that the UK is intolerant and that is how the world sees us.

She’s right, you know. Ask anyone from overseas (if you’re not scared to talk to them) what they think of Brits and they’ll tell you we’re arrogant, intolerant, two faced and we’ve lived on an island for too long.

@Doodar

my point is we're creating ghettos of immigrants, shipped out of expensive areas, mainly to the north of England. I don't think turkey keeps immigrants in the same way we do.

Immigrants are not kept. They work and pay taxes (mostly without being able to access public funds).

@Sam020
No, of course all 26 million will not be going to U.K.
But the point is that it is not just this year’s total of 100,000 applicants and U.K. is done, there will continue to be more, and more every year.
And I’ve said nothing about refugees robbing anyone. I am descended from refugees myself, so there is no question about how nice they might be as people. It’s simply a question of a small island with one of the highest population densities in the world, so there has to be a point where you have no more room.

I don’t think “richness” matters as much as room to settle refugees.
Turkey is three times bigger than the U.K. and has a much lower population density of 108 people per sq km, compared to the U.K. population density of 280 people per sq km.

China, for example has a population density of 150 people per sq km
USA has a population density of only 34 people per sq km.

@Sam020
Because the refugees crossing the channel are not French. Why do you think the channel refugees are somehow special cases and not part of a larger problem? They are part of the 26m global refugee population. Which is only going to get bigger from climate change. And there are clear migration routes these refugees are following...one of which goes directly to the U.K. like a yellow brick road to OZ.

@Sam020
Immigrants are not kept. They work and pay taxes (mostly without being able to access public funds).

Asylum seekers do not have the automatic right to work in the U.K. you are mixing up legal immigrants with asylum seekers.
“Those who claim asylum in the UK are not normally allowed to work whilst their claim is being considered. They are instead provided with accommodation and support to meet their essential living needs if they would otherwise be destitute. The policy outlining when permission to work will be granted to those who claim asylum is set out in the Immigration Rules. This outlines that the Home Office may grant permission to work to asylum seekers whose claim has been outstanding for more than 12 months through no fault of their own. Under this policy, those who are allowed to work are restricted to jobs on the shortage occupation list published by the Home Office. Any permission to work granted will come to an end if their claim is refused and any appeals rights are exhausted because at that point they are expected to leave the UK. Those who are granted leave have unrestricted access to the labour market.”
www.gov.uk/government/publications/handling-applications-for-permission-to-take-employment-instruction/permission-to-work-and-volunteering-for-asylum-seekers-accessible-version

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@Sam020
Immigrants are not kept. They work and pay taxes (mostly without being able to access public funds).

Asylum seekers do not have the automatic right to work in the U.K. you are mixing up legal immigrants with asylum seekers.
“Those who claim asylum in the UK are not normally allowed to work whilst their claim is being considered. They are instead provided with accommodation and support to meet their essential living needs if they would otherwise be destitute. The policy outlining when permission to work will be granted to those who claim asylum is set out in the Immigration Rules. This outlines that the Home Office may grant permission to work to asylum seekers whose claim has been outstanding for more than 12 months through no fault of their own. Under this policy, those who are allowed to work are restricted to jobs on the shortage occupation list published by the Home Office. Any permission to work granted will come to an end if their claim is refused and any appeals rights are exhausted because at that point they are expected to leave the UK. Those who are granted leave have unrestricted access to the labour market.”
www.gov.uk/government/publications/handling-applications-for-permission-to-take-employment-instruction/permission-to-work-and-volunteering-for-asylum-seekers-accessible-version[/quote]
I'm not the one confusing immigrant's with asylum seekers.

@Sam020 Turkey gives nothing close to what we give immigrants and they give with an aim to stop them coming entirely, rather then give them advantages over their local poorer people, if locals are unhappy they're allowed to say something. That's the thing, if all the countries had to give a percentage of the wages for that place, a specific standard of living attributed to illegal immigrants that might be fair, but when one country gives more than others it does become unfair.
It's actually particularly uneven across Europe itself.

@FruitFeatures it may be the case that people slate the British abroad but at the same time most people know of the stereotyping around the French or Germans for example. Most stereotyping shows up ignorance. We seem to have gotten to a point where if you dare say you are proud to be British because of a long line of your own heritage and things to be proud of (I had a few relatives who gained medals in the bot WW1&WW2 for example) this is also unfair. What space gets carved out for the indigenous people? Why is it so wrong that the indigenous people want to preserve their own culture. Just because some don't agree with the culture or they think it's funny or rubbish, doesn't mean indigenous British people should have their culture taken away from them or have to move entire areas to preserve it.

My dad went to where he was born and all the road signs had been changed into Punjabi with the Punjabi characters so you have no chance of reading them. He was well and truly hurt when he found everything he grew up with wiped out by a completely mono cultural change. He got stared at the whole time as the only white man walking around, he went to see his childhood home in east London. He's not racist. He didn't want his own culture to disappear in the way it had done there. Many elements of most cultures have bad points is it ok to wipe them out as a result?!

There's refugees and asylum seekers in every European country, Germany takes the most

@chillicrackers - that sounds awful for your dad, unfortunately a lot of the London suburbs seem to be going that way, Southall is one example

@woodhill - similar situation a couple of years ago. Some colleagues and I were working in Cheshire and staying at a local hotel. My colleagues, all British but whose families came from Kenya and India, were the only non white people at the hotel. They were made to feel very uncomfortable by some of the staff and other guests

The problem is they have already passed through a number of safe countries including France.

[quote chillicrackers]@Sam020 Turkey gives nothing close to what we give immigrants and they give with an aim to stop them coming entirely, rather then give them advantages over their local poorer people, if locals are unhappy they're allowed to say something. That's the thing, if all the countries had to give a percentage of the wages for that place, a specific standard of living attributed to illegal immigrants that might be fair, but when one country gives more than others it does become unfair.
It's actually particularly uneven across Europe itself.

@FruitFeatures it may be the case that people slate the British abroad but at the same time most people know of the stereotyping around the French or Germans for example. Most stereotyping shows up ignorance. We seem to have gotten to a point where if you dare say you are proud to be British because of a long line of your own heritage and things to be proud of (I had a few relatives who gained medals in the bot WW1&WW2 for example) this is also unfair. What space gets carved out for the indigenous people? Why is it so wrong that the indigenous people want to preserve their own culture. Just because some don't agree with the culture or they think it's funny or rubbish, doesn't mean indigenous British people should have their culture taken away from them or have to move entire areas to preserve it.

My dad went to where he was born and all the road signs had been changed into Punjabi with the Punjabi characters so you have no chance of reading them. He was well and truly hurt when he found everything he grew up with wiped out by a completely mono cultural change. He got stared at the whole time as the only white man walking around, he went to see his childhood home in east London. He's not racist. He didn't want his own culture to disappear in the way it had done there. Many elements of most cultures have bad points is it ok to wipe them out as a result?! [/quote]
What is English “indigenous” culture? My family is pretty much entirely English going back generations and I couldn’t tell you a thing that points to an English culture, unless you count working yourself into an early grave, going to the pub and being repressed.

Also, I didn’t say Brits are slated abroad, I said people think we’re intolerant, which we are and your post is an example of that. Why should we preserve road signs for nostalgia reasons rather than making it easier for the people who actually live in an area to get around? The addition of a new culture doesn’t erase the existing culture. Road signs are not culture. Your father can still do English things like go to the pub and be repressed even though his old road now has a sign that’s in Punjabi. He’s also still part of the dominant culture, as are you. His way of life is not under threat.

@tttigress
Exactly, they have passed through, safer, richer, and larger countries with more room/housing and infrastructure than the U.K.

What is English “indigenous” culture?
There is a distinct English culture. You may not know because you’ve always lived in England so to you, it is just the way things are and the way people are supposed to act. But if you lived abroad, you’d notice the differences in culture.

The addition of a new culture doesn’t erase the existing culture.
But it can. Historical examples are everywhere of how incoming colonists culture can in the span of a few generations become the new dominant culture in a country. The entire continents of North America, South America and Australia for example...

[quote Parker231]@woodhill - similar situation a couple of years ago. Some colleagues and I were working in Cheshire and staying at a local hotel. My colleagues, all British but whose families came from Kenya and India, were the only non white people at the hotel. They were made to feel very uncomfortable by some of the staff and other guests[/quote]
Yes that's not nice

@Tevion28

I know income in these countries can be extremely low so families can't be provided for. Do you think these men think come here to try and get jobs

In some cases, yes. I know several fathers at my school who were Syrian refugees and are who are now working, supporting their families and whose children are, without exception, absolute delights, despite the horrors we know they have lived through.

@EileenGC

My dad snuck into what later became my home country, through the mountains, in winter and in the middle of the night. He was a strong and healthy 22 year old.

Yes, these people are desperate. They’re putting themselves through this because it’s a better, safer option than staying in their own countries.

Why pass so many safe countries on the way to the UK? I don’t know, variety of reasons. My dad left many ‘good’ countries behind on the way to his final destination. He was going there because he had some acquaintances who had already settled there and he hoped they’d be able to help him. The language was easier. The residency application process and general admin fees were lower. There was more need for workers in his job. He had an actual visa for some of the countries on his route but chose not to stay there, legally.

This

Think about what you would do if leaving the country you had grown up in and roots in due to a horrific situation there, losing everything and going to another country to try to start again with nothing.

You would want to go to a country where you perhaps spoke the language already, or knew family/friends or there was a community that already lived there, where there was a good chance of you being able to secure work and housing, and where you felt your children would have a future.

@Sam020

The UK is known as a tolerant country only inside the uk. Please trust me when I say this. Most people outside the UK think we are bigoted idiots. Just read their papers to find out what they think of us and our famously misplaced sense of exceptionalism.

And what about the French who are openly racist, far worse than Britain? I know this because I have French family and spend a lot of time there.

And the Australians? They have plenty of land and are wealthier than us. How many refugees do you see them taking?

Britain has done more than it's fair share, and is far more tolerant, than many other countries.