IN wanting to set up a Mumsnet No Man's (Mum's) Land between BFers & FFers?

[Iklboo]

We're NEVER going to agree on this subject so I'm setting up a nice quiet bunker somewhere in the middle entitled

"I DID WHAT WAS BEST FOR MY BABY AND I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYONE ELSE SAYS LA LA LA LA LA"

Not being flippant, disrespecful, rude or anything like that. Just neutral.

gosh, twinkle, how awful, thank god you got out of that hole...

I know and I say the same to all "failed" BFers. It seems like the end of the world at the time but when my DD got to 5yrs and somebody asked me what she was like as a baby I say she was good but I wsih I hadnt got so fricken neurotic about BFing and just enjoyed her for what she was, and I made sure I did that with DD2 just put her on the bottle and let DD1 take part in the feeding ritual

I don't think I'll ever see it from that point of view Liesel. For a start I was let down in a way because my DS had a tongue tie that wasn't picked up. Secondly, I'm still desperate to get it right and if (a big if) I ever have another one I know I'll still feel the same way.

thankfully pissing about is one of my talents.

it never quite felt like the end of the world but I do wonder if I can't get something as basic as bfing right then how am I going to help her through the important stuff like tweenies or teletubbies, religion or atheism, white wine or red.

actually this forceful debate has sorted some of my head out so woo-hoo and another glass of red I'll regret in the morning.

yes, i think i wouldn't get so upset about it again (i hope) because i can see that my dd is healthy, robust, smart etc so i'd have that as a comfort. but the fact is that it isn't as good a food medium so i will try like fuck to do it again and i'll suck it up if we're stuck with mix feeding again. plus i'm a lazy beggar and i really would like not to have to sterilise again as it was a pita. i
think the thing about topping up, though, is that it sounds quite benign, as if you give three bfs or whatever and then do formula at night or something. whereas the reality is a grim treadmill of pumping, sterilising, bfing, bottlefeeding etc etc etc. so it's not an easy option either...

I think I once described it as the worst of both worlds Aitch. It certainly was in my case. All the pain of breastfeeding, plus all the expense and faffing around of formula feeding.

But I'd still do it again rather than not breastfeed at all. I'm going to bed now (why is it only these threads that keep me up until stupid o'clock?)

Ok Aitch, so what is the right thing to say to somebody like you, in your position or the lady last night who hated herself? Do you give them permission to ff even though that makes them feel a failure? Do you keep them trying to bf even though they can't manage it. Or would you not have posted on the subject at all since nothing short of bfing would have made you feel better and talking about it makes it worse.

Not being confrontational or anything. I really am interested because I think if it were me I wouldn't post because I wouldn't to be told that it was OK to fail but obviously everybody is different. Like you I was told it was OK to give up bf by my HV. She was very supportive of the bf and helpful too but she could see what a struggle it was and she wanted to take the pressure off but she couldn't see how devastating I would have found that. I couldn't let that happen though and thankfully I managed to do it my way, more by luck than judgement but what if it had gone the other way and I had to give in to ff? What would have made me feel better?

I understand that she was in pain from ff by the way, but if she couldn't get the bf back on track (and I have no idea if it is possible) she has to accept that for her own sake.

I think the "happy to ff" have got muddled up with the "not happy to ff at all, actually and really would rather bf".

Which is a shame, because it all tends to go rather norks up at that point.

Being told that something you dearly wanted to do "doesn't matter" and "it's all the same anyway" is patronising, undermining and not very bright, imo.

As for there being no difference between bf and ff - you lot (the lot who think that) are a marketer's dream, you know that?!

Maybe I'll just post my first post again.

" By AwayInAMunker on Fri 14-Dec-07 15:51:56
Why is it about agreement?

Why does it have to be a fight in the first place?

The thing is, not everyone does what they think is best for their circumstances in a rational "I've evaulated this" sort of way - they do what circumstance thrusts upon them in many cases and feel sad about having the choice taken away from them."

Niecie, why would you have to give permission to ff or to continue bf?

Why not explore how she might feel with each scenario and try to come to a solution that, if not ideal, causes the least pain (emotional and/or physical)?

I've been toying with adding a link to this thread on here

I've already had one poster questioning my motives for posting it.

It's the European formulas one, in case anyone on this thread has read the OP and been avoiding it, as I suspect may be the case.

However, I think it's worth posting, because I think some of you will find it interesting.

Maybe permission is the wrong word but people come to have their choices validated and get the support they need to follow them through. But what if that can't happen, if she can't continue to breastfeed?

The lady last night knew what she wanted. She knew what would cause her the least pain. But if she can't bf then she will be in pain and Aitch and others were saying that they didn't want to be told that ff was OK. So if bf isn't possible and ff isn't OK and is emotionally painful too, what do you say? What possible solution is there? Seems to me that no matter what anybody says they are in danger of making her feel worse. Bickering amongst ourselves about whether she should continue trying to bf or mix feed or ff, rather than sharing experiences and ideas isn't helping her either.

We keep using that poor woman as an example which is probably bad but her experience seems to be quite common. However, for all I know she got some excellent face to face help today and has it under control. I really hope that she has.

I think there's a huge difference between saying it's ok to ff and saying it doesn't matter whether you ff or bf.

I hear what you say about validation and I certainly wanted to hear that ffing was ok but only from someone I knew totally supported my desire to bf. What many women get is health professionals, friends and relatives telling women to move to ffing because they don't know how to help them bf successfully.

It's hard to tell what someone posting on a board wants or needs to hear but certainly often I think one of the messages they should get is "you are not a monster if you turn to formula". It's a crying bloody shame that anyone who is struggling to feed their baby can't get the appropriate RL help.

Hunker, I love you

My goodness how glad am I that I went to bed!!

From basically saying 'yes, there is a difference between breastfeeding and bottlefeeding' (proven by LOTS of studies) and 'If a woman wants to breastfeed and can't then she deserves all the help she can get, but if she doesn't want to breastfeed and use formula then that's perfectly ok too' it turns into the usual 'militant breastfeeders crap'

As I said earlier in the thread, It seems that the second you post something positive about helping/supporting/advocating breastfeeding you're expected to be mad and think formula is poison and most of the time the breastfeeders are more understanding and accepting of the ff's than vice versa.

TinyTim - I was going to disagree with you there and say that I would be supportive of ff but then I realise that as a bf myself I am agreeing with you!

There are militants on both sides sadly. It is not, for example, helpful to a woman who in all likelihood is going to have to go down the formula route if she has to read about how awful formula milk is. That isn't going to make her feel better.

I sometimes think that some ff are apparently militant because they have this stuff about formula reported to them at every turn and they are made to feel bad for something they may not have had control over. It is no wonder that they are defensive.

Yes I know breast is best, we all know that!!

As I keep saying, debate is fine but not on a thread where a woman is asking for support because it isn't helpful to her.

Of course, I agree Niecie, reading about how 'bad' formula is isn't going to make anyone that uses it feel better. But then that brings me back to the thread hunker linked earlier. On which some supposedly 'militant breastfeeders' were talking about how bad it is that formula is not tested and designed better, and that it should not be able to have extra iron etc added to it so the manufacturers can claim it is 'nutritionally better than breast/cows milk'.

I have also said on many a thread that I ff DD, she was prem and I had no help with feeding her so I had to turn to formula, which is fine if I had chosen to, but I didn't.

For those who think it doesn't matter maybe you should read hunkers blog on which many mners have put their negative breastfeeding experiences you'll find those who wanted to and weren't able felt a lot worse than anyone who said 'You know what, I don't want to breastfeed so I shan't'.

neicie, did you actually read what i wrote to that woman? because what i wrote was what i felt was good advice, obviously. as was what everyone else wrote, by definition we're only saying what we would have wanted to hear in that situation, and personally i think that i have a great deal in common with her, right down to her point about self-harm. it was after that point that she asked me specifically for more help.
if a person understands the internet at all, they know they'll get a range of advice that they can choose to respond to. but to post saying that it doesn't matter, when the OP has posted saying that it matters so much they can understand how people come to self-harm... well, apart from the innaccuracy of the statement it's also very insensitive.

and if she had written her OP and got no response because everyone wasn't sure what to write, do you think she would have felt better or worse about her situation?

I think we are broadly in agreement Tinytim and I know that I came very close to failing at breastfeeding and I know how bad that made me feel. There were several mornings in DS1's first 8 weeks when I sterilised the bottles and made up the formula because I just couldn't do it any more and he had quite literally drunk me dry and still wanted more. Thankfully, the little monkey had other ideas and would not take a bottle from me (although he did take one from my mum when I had to go out so it wasn't that he didn't know what to do).

I think, what I am saying is that there is a fine line between what is helpful and what is hurtful when somebody comes for advice and it is easy to overstep the mark.

I think in singular situations what a poster really wants is someone who can say 'Yes, I've bene there' or 'What you're feeling is normal' and then support on how to do what they want to do.
People advising the opposite of someones ideals is always going to be confusing for the poster and can often make them feel more anxious.
Personally, I think too many of us half read an op then proceed to tell them what we think is bestfor them rather than how to achieve what they think is best for them.

I have just recently spoken to a friend who is pg with her third child, has not bf either of the first two but said that when her second looked for her breast she cried, as she felt physically unable to do it. She is hoping that with this one she will be able to give it a go, but is again worried about how she will feel when the time comes. I mentioned that she could post on this board, and she won't because she has read the way these threads end up, and although would probably love some good advice on how and what haoppens she doesn't want to have to go through the barrage of crap she has read directed at other posters, whether it be regarding the 'oversexualisation of breast', 'no-one can make you breastfeed so just formula if it's what you want' or 'breast is best, you better do it'.

Tbh, that makes me pretty sad. She is an intelligent woman who is happy with her choices and knows her own mind, yet the constant arguing has put her off posting. Imagine if she wasn't able to get advice elsewhere........

Have to admit I'm someone who now wishes they hadn't been so emotional about ff, as there is some evidence my first baby suffered, through medication carrying through the milk.

With my second baby I was prepared to carry on taking a medication (the only one approved for bf's), that was turning me into a depressed zombie totally unfit to look after a baby, and would even (this is how hung up you can get when you're hormonal!) have considered risking my life by giving up on the medicine altogether.

I am very glad that my GP gave me a gentle talking to at this stage. She rightly pointed out that my little boy needed his mummy for other things than bf, and that all that nutrition wouldn't do him much good if I went and dropped him on his head because I was too stoned to know what I was doing. Also that losing his Mum wouldn't be a terribly good start to his young life. But I did feel guilty and I did cry. I am just glad that noone was around to underline my guilt at the time, but that all my friends were really supportive.

Maybe that is it, maybe somewhere like this is not the best place to get advice because we don't really know what somebody feels. There is a limit to how much you can write, especially when you have a small baby crying to be fed. I think you need to be speak to somebody really but who has that luxury at 3am when your baby has been crying for 3 hours and you don't know how to make it stop.

Alternatively, what about if people could post suggestions to the OP without anybody else being able to see and a comment on them? It would cut down on the bickering.

I think that if I were ever in the position of needing bf help (or ff come to that), this would not be the place I would turn to, not knowing what I know and how it works. That is sad though, but it is a question of finding the one person you can identify with and who will be able to help you and that is very hit and miss. It won't necessarily be an expert either, more likely somebody who has walk in your shoes, so to speak. The difficulty arises when the person with the problem can't do what they want to do and no amount of support will change that.

I have a friend who had a horrible pregnancy, horrible and long labour and birth and desperately wanted to bf. She tried for days and her DS was losing weight rapidly and ended up in hospital at one point. She ended up having to ff which broke her heart. It turns out, when she had her second child, that she was producing milk but somehow didn't have adequate pipework in her breast, so to speak to get that milk out. She physically couldn't breast feed but knowing that changed her whole perspective. Imagine that she had posted on here when having trouble with her first child and everybody had been throwing advice at her and urging her not to give up and it would all be alright. It was never going to be alright no matter how much she hated herself for not bf so supporting her wishes was of no use at all. It really would have been better to help her accept her body was not going to work and she had to abandon her ideals but we can't know that whilst we are all tapping away behind our computer screens, which makes it quite a dangerous thing, to offer advice without knowing the real facts.

Niecie, I think you'll find that a lot of the advice on b/feeding on here mentions contacting the NCT/BFN/BFC's etc. ie - get proper professional help to see if they can help you. The situation you refer to is, really, quite unusual.

The problem with other's not seeing other peoples suggestions to an OP would be that if someone suggested something that was a crock of shit, how is the OP going to know unless someone who does know what they are talking about can challenge that? It is a good thing for myths, wrong information etc to be challenged. Not a bad thing.

This 'argument' is becoming so over-generalised and so point specific it is daft.

excellent post, Niecie. Well said indeed.