IN wanting to set up a Mumsnet No Man's (Mum's) Land between BFers & FFers?

[Iklboo]

We're NEVER going to agree on this subject so I'm setting up a nice quiet bunker somewhere in the middle entitled

"I DID WHAT WAS BEST FOR MY BABY AND I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYONE ELSE SAYS LA LA LA LA LA"

Not being flippant, disrespecful, rude or anything like that. Just neutral.

[Niecie]

Who knows MrsGrinch.

It isn't quite Christmas yet - is it too early for a game of footie in no-mans land, until hostilities restart?

[MrsGrinch]

Was that the all-clear then?

[Niecie]

I don't think she was dealt with that badly either. People keep harping on about it. I wasn't originally specific about any thread but somebody insisted I give an example. I just happened to chose that one because I remember it, it being fairly new. There could have been others. No, I am not going to find them and have them analysed to pieces too. I keep making general points and it keeps being brought back to that one thread and I don't want to do that again.

I think I am going round in circles - I said something similar to this a few hours ago. My original point was that people don't want to have to put up with a debate when they are asking for help, so yes there should be a bunker in no-mans land, to quote the OP. I don't think it is helping to keep going over that.

[SantasUnderGodzillasBumcheek]

[VVVExcitedAboutChristmasQV]

No, indeed........you weirdy

[SantasUnderGodzillasBumcheek]

Lol...no...i mean yes, i am, i just was full of PMT (which i only realised this afternoon, when all became obvious), and was very tired.

I looked at this thread, and thought, "well, no sane discussion seems to be getting anywhere", and proceeded to post some BS that i know is pointless

Why? I mean, i don't even take vitamin pills because it has been implied that artificial vitamins aren't absorbed properly!

[VVVExcitedAboutChristmasQV]

Are you not fully in control of your faculties?

[SantasUnderGodzillasBumcheek]

Did i really post what i think i posted last night

[PrisonerCellBlockAitch]

no. what i didn't say was, to quote from you 'not to feel let down by her body and telling her it was OK to use formula'. i said absolutely to grieve over the fact that her body was letting her down and had done before, because i know how that feels and i believe it's better to acknowledge it and move on from there.
it's not a matter of OK or not when you use formula because you don't want to, it's because your baby will starve to death if you don't. okay doesn't come into it. in fact, being told it's okay when you know it's not what you wanted to do hurts like fuck. it's just a fact of your life, but if you can aspire to mix feeding and are aware that it's not a pointelss exercise then it can be very healing.
i'm not sure why you're getting into this in such detail, i simply don't read the same thing into the thread as you do. you seem to think that she was dealt with badly, i think she was helped quite well. i think she does too, by the way.

[VVVExcitedAboutChristmasQV]

you'd've been alright if you hadn't have posted the second time red

[Niecie]

Aitch - Direct quote from you where you referred to how you would feel if somebody said ff didn't matter.

".. i had too many people telling me it didn't matter and formula wasn't the worst thing in the world and that made me feel like shit".

I believe you said something similar elsewhere but I don't have time to look for it.

[redadmiral]

Ooh, have I killed this thread? anyone else want an interminable thread killing - I'm very good at it!

[PrisonerCellBlockAitch]

that's not what i said, is it? what i actually told her is that for some of us, mixed feeding is all we can aspire to, and while we'll grieve for the loss of something we wanted to do, the pain does fade in time. to your friend i'd have said much the same, i think, other than the mixed feeding if she wasn't producing any milk. we all just have to adjust our aspiration based on the reality, but it's not always easy and certainly not helped by people dismissing those feelings.

as it happens, for me the best advice i got, the one that allowed me to breathe again, was when i finally got seen at the specialist bfing unit (the one i gave yesterday's OP the tel no for) and they said exactly that - that for some of us, mixed feeding is our very best effort, and that every drop is doing good so it's not a waste of time giving just a little every day. it's that advice i try to repeat, because it really helped me to adjust my aspirations and stop beating myself up about the exclusive bfing thing.

[redadmiral]

Going back to Polly's post, as a failed breastfeeder who still feels bad about it I'd just like to say that I didn't read her post as offensive or belittling of my experience. I read it as trying to be helpful and smoothing over the fact that some of us have had to give our babies formula when we would have so much preferred not to. Ok, so unless we've been completely out of touch with the media for the last 10 years we all know that breastfeeding statistically best for babies'longterm health, but I for one prefer not to be continually reminded of that fact. I respect that that's not how everyone in that situation feels - just trying to put another point of view.

[Niecie]

You are probably right, beachcomber. I only said it as a 'perhaps' it would be a good idea as a means of stopping the debating in a thread that is supposed to be about helping.

Aitch - for your balanced and sensible answer, there would have been somebody who would have backed up what she wanted to hear with an equally sensible answer and told her that she could do it if only she followed this or that advice or phoned the right person. And who would she most likely have listened to - probably the one who wanted to help her with the bf because as you said yesterday, that is what she would have wanted to hear and listening to somebody who was telling her not to feel let down by her body and telling her it was OK to use formula would have made her feel worse.

[soopermum1]

i have a foot in both camps as i breast and bottle fed my DS. IMO, people should do what's right for them. it has no effect on me or the world i live in in general how other mothers choose to feed their babies. i'm sure everyone is doing what's best for them and their circumstances and IMO it's really none of my business.

so, can i join the bunker?

[TinyTimLivesinVictorianSqualor]

Me too Aitch, if only I'd known about mn when dd was in SCBU, or when ds decided to bite me all the bloody time!!

[PrisonerCellBlockAitch]

amen, beachcomber, seems like you and i have been reading the same threads though. i'd certainly come here if i was looking for help, i wish i had with dd. as it was i looked every bloody other place and got totally inneffectual 'it'll be fine, whatever' help when what i was looking for was someone who'd been where i was. and that's what i try to do for people here now, because i remember how desperate i felt.

and niecie, for the record if your friend had posted here she'd CERTAINLY have had me posting that some people just can't do it. a small percentage, but if you're one of them it means the world.

[TinyTimLivesinVictorianSqualor]

Niecie, I was on a thread this morning where someone asked how soon people had given their babies a bottle whilst breastfeeding, as she wanted to start yet her baby would not take the bottle.

The first poster told her that basically it doesn't matter, do it when you want and that nipple confusion didn't happen, she also didn't mention that expressing can alter your milk supply so early on (op's baby was 4 weeks old)

IMO, THAT is why we need to be able to see other comments. The first oster could have caused a real issue with the op's breastfeeding, and the op wasn't posting with desperation either, just a general question.

[Beachcomber]

I don't seem to be reading the same threads as everybody else!

Seems to me that the help/advice/support given here is mostly excellent and done in a thoughtful careful manner. Many a time I have read a thread where posters started out trying to help someone continue breastfeeding and then continue to give the same level of support and help when the OP decided to move to formula/mixed feeding.

I have also read some debate type threads that have got a bit out of hand but usually the majority of posters have pulled up the ones who are getting hot under the collar.

[Niecie]

Thanks Honoria

VVVQV - You are right, misinformation does need to be challenged but all too often it ends up with people bickering and arguing about the rights and wrongs of bf v ff and the OP getting lost. Sometimes these things aren't entirely black and white. If the advice were to see one of the professional groups then that is surely the best that we can do for somebody in trouble. We can't sort them out by debating.

The reason we seem to have been hung up on this one thread is that somebody asked for an example of just this sort of thing. It isn't the first time I have seen it though but it was just the most recent example that came to mind and somehow we seem to have ended up analysing it to pieces. The OP may have been in an unusal position but I think the same thing could have and does happen on any thread where the possibility of switching from bf to ff is raised, for whatever reason.

To be honest I am not sure how I ended up posting on this thread, other than the fact that neutral advice, suited to the OP and not about the general rights and wrong of bf v ff, sounds like a good idea.

[HonoriaGlossop]

excellent post, Niecie. Well said indeed.

[VVVExcitedAboutChristmasQV]

Niecie, I think you'll find that a lot of the advice on b/feeding on here mentions contacting the NCT/BFN/BFC's etc. ie - get proper professional help to see if they can help you. The situation you refer to is, really, quite unusual.

The problem with other's not seeing other peoples suggestions to an OP would be that if someone suggested something that was a crock of shit, how is the OP going to know unless someone who does know what they are talking about can challenge that? It is a good thing for myths, wrong information etc to be challenged. Not a bad thing.

This 'argument' is becoming so over-generalised and so point specific it is daft.

[Niecie]

Maybe that is it, maybe somewhere like this is not the best place to get advice because we don't really know what somebody feels. There is a limit to how much you can write, especially when you have a small baby crying to be fed. I think you need to be speak to somebody really but who has that luxury at 3am when your baby has been crying for 3 hours and you don't know how to make it stop.

Alternatively, what about if people could post suggestions to the OP without anybody else being able to see and a comment on them? It would cut down on the bickering.

I think that if I were ever in the position of needing bf help (or ff come to that), this would not be the place I would turn to, not knowing what I know and how it works. That is sad though, but it is a question of finding the one person you can identify with and who will be able to help you and that is very hit and miss. It won't necessarily be an expert either, more likely somebody who has walk in your shoes, so to speak. The difficulty arises when the person with the problem can't do what they want to do and no amount of support will change that.

I have a friend who had a horrible pregnancy, horrible and long labour and birth and desperately wanted to bf. She tried for days and her DS was losing weight rapidly and ended up in hospital at one point. She ended up having to ff which broke her heart. It turns out, when she had her second child, that she was producing milk but somehow didn't have adequate pipework in her breast, so to speak to get that milk out. She physically couldn't breast feed but knowing that changed her whole perspective. Imagine that she had posted on here when having trouble with her first child and everybody had been throwing advice at her and urging her not to give up and it would all be alright. It was never going to be alright no matter how much she hated herself for not bf so supporting her wishes was of no use at all. It really would have been better to help her accept her body was not going to work and she had to abandon her ideals but we can't know that whilst we are all tapping away behind our computer screens, which makes it quite a dangerous thing, to offer advice without knowing the real facts.

[cory]

Have to admit I'm someone who now wishes they hadn't been so emotional about ff, as there is some evidence my first baby suffered, through medication carrying through the milk.

With my second baby I was prepared to carry on taking a medication (the only one approved for bf's), that was turning me into a depressed zombie totally unfit to look after a baby, and would even (this is how hung up you can get when you're hormonal!) have considered risking my life by giving up on the medicine altogether.

I am very glad that my GP gave me a gentle talking to at this stage. She rightly pointed out that my little boy needed his mummy for other things than bf, and that all that nutrition wouldn't do him much good if I went and dropped him on his head because I was too stoned to know what I was doing. Also that losing his Mum wouldn't be a terribly good start to his young life. But I did feel guilty and I did cry. I am just glad that noone was around to underline my guilt at the time, but that all my friends were really supportive.