IN wanting to set up a Mumsnet No Man's (Mum's) Land between BFers & FFers?

[Iklboo]

We're NEVER going to agree on this subject so I'm setting up a nice quiet bunker somewhere in the middle entitled

"I DID WHAT WAS BEST FOR MY BABY AND I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYONE ELSE SAYS LA LA LA LA LA"

Not being flippant, disrespecful, rude or anything like that. Just neutral.

on a personal/kind of funny note I remember with my first child I struggled for about two days in the maternity ward and cried and cried. then a lovely mother in the next room to me came skipping down the corridor singing "SMA all the way SMA all the way" and it made me PMSL.

By pollypumpkin on Fri 14-Dec-07 21:30:18
It makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER whether you BF or FF - just do what feels right at the time. Really. Believe me.

it makes a big difference to some women whether they bf. doesn't to others. desi, my position is that i felt terrible emotional pain in not being able to bf, that was completely internal, not caused by outside influences making me want to bf. now that dd is older i feel that pain less acutely but it doesn't mean that it didn't matter, it mattered a lot. with regards to both the research and the very real feelings of a lot of women on this thread, it makes a difference whether we bf or ff. it makes no difference to me whether you bf or ff, why would it? so i'm pleased for you that you were glad to give up bfing, because that must have been a relief and easier to rationalise. but if bfing gives you up, it's not so easy.

You did, as it happens Desi! "It's a small issue in a lifetime of parenting, and the wish the whole damned subject could be dropped. I really do." And of course there was FranticPants telling us to get over it.

I know I'm probably taking you out of context by picking up on that particular phrase. It probably isn't what you meant. But another lady who is distraught about not being able to breastfeed has been told by a few well-meaning people to "get over it and move on". It's just not that simple.

no its not Aitch, and thats probably the most honest thing Ive heard. I think the minute we become mothers we feel guilty on a daily basis about everything, i.e why did I bring you into a world like this, Im going to die one day and leave you, I have to take you to get your injections even though you are giggling and look so damn cute, I have to go back to work and so on and so on

You are very much taking me out of context, as you well know

I'm not responsible for the emotional well-being of other women. Women who couldn't breast feed and rue the fact, deserve sympathy. I have never argued otherwise.

But if the implication is that all women who formula feed do so because they can't breast feed, that's taking the evangelism too far.

Plenty of women simply don't want to.

I can't be held responsible for FranticPant's post because she's not me I would avoid blending posts ... mind are piquant enough on their own

Aitch there was a thread yesterday with a title like I hate myself. Can't find the link now (I should be writing a sodding essay which needs to be in in 17minutes and won't be). The woman had had a horrible time breastfeeding and it wasn't working out well. She had used formula and was really beating herself up about it. Everybody wanted to be very supportive of her to carry on breastfeeding. I think I even said myself, try again in the morning, it is always harder to bear at night.

However, I have been thinking about this. She had had lots of support and she was still struggling. What right do people have to say she should carry on struggling if it just isn't working. I know there will be some who will have said on that thread that it is OK to ff if she needs to. But they won't be the comments she remembers. She will remember the ones which told she should keep going. At the end of the day, if she does have to stop trying she will feel a failure and there is no need. Yes, breast is best but ff is pretty good these days too and it probably won't be detrimental to her baby to use it. We should be trying to make people feel good about themselves no matter what they decide to do so long as it is legal and safe.

I am not putting this very well but there is a line where support stops helping and starts adding to the pressure and I know it is very hard to judge where that is.

Sometimes too, rather than just setting out the advice people seem to start judging other people's advice. Somebody will say I was in your postion and I gave a bottle of ff and it was OK, but they get jumped on for not supporting the breast feeding.

To an extent I am just an outsider on this. My bf days are done, but I just feel, having stepped back a bit from the raw emotion of it all, is that all too often threads like the one I am talking about turn into a debate about the rights and wrongs of bf v ff and they aren't about sharing experiences of how we each, as mothers, coped with our babies and as such, just add to the pressure on the person asking for help.

Cor, sorry that was a long one again. I'm trying so hard not to upset anybody but I am sure that I have.

Bang goes my essay deadline. Another late night

you might like polly's point but it's still not accurate. and i don't feel guilty at all for any of the things you've mentioned, by the way so you should get a grip, none of those things matter at all. Believe me.

niecie - that's the post i got bollocked on. but fgs - the woman was saying she hated herself and could understand self harming!!!!

all i said was that her baby needed her to be happy more than it need breastmilk

And yes, Aitch, I know what you've gone through with regards to this. Please don't think I'm belittling your pain, because that's the last thing I would do.

I'm addressing a wider picture, and I appreciate that in the process, individuals may have cause to feel aggrieved. It's very easy to be misunderstood on an internet forum, as we all know to our cost (and have the scars to prove it).

Any how, I'm off to my bed. No doubt I'll catch up with you all tomorrow.

Night, ladies

neicie, i was on that thread. she was not happy using formula, not at all and had issues with her body having failed her. she got good advice, i thought, with a good few people offering tips on how to help her supply (medically, not woolly hippy stuff) and i was one of a couple of people who acknowledged that perhaps mixed feeding might be more achievable for her.

silkcushion, can't you see that she was actually saying that using formula wasn't making her happy? so what you said was actually pretty insensitive? have you read what bero and twinkle have written on this thread? this happy mum/happy baby thing only works if the mum is HAPPY to give formula.

I just thought that was a really sad thread.

Silkcushion did get jumped on for suggesting ff was OK and there was even some debate about whether adding a ff and mix feeding would affect the poor woman's supply, if I recall correctly.

I don't know, I just think that a thread that asks for support shouldn't disintegrate into a debate. Debates should be left for a thread like this.

I think we should be trying to make her feel good about herself whether or not she choses to bf because quite obviously she had given it her best shot.

I had responded to her on other threads too - we were on the same antenatal thread. I am in exactly the same boat, as she knew. My dd is 5 weeks old and I am having to express and give formula.

The difference is that I don't hate myself. I accept that giving formula and not being able to bf is not the worst thing in the world. I wasn't belittling her feelings, and she didn't think I was either fwiw. Clearly she is v distressed and has loads to cope with (other than the bf issue)

What horrified me was the reactions of other posters. People are so agressive sometimes. If you wouldn't be like it in rl then don't be like it on here (don't necesarily mean you).

I agree if people post saying "can I have some bf advice" then they should get it - and people are v helpful. What concerns me is the rigidity of people's views.

I was accused of saying bf and ff were the same. I didn't - if I thought that then why would I be expressing all bloody day? MN has been great since I joined in July - this is my first negative experience and it's v offputting

do you think? i didn't for a minute think that she thought she'd given it her best shot, even although she had clearly tried very very hard indeed and anyone would completely understand her wanting to give up. but she didn't want to give up. she definitely asked me by name what she could do with regards to getting more help in scotland. personally i wouldn't have wanted anyone trotting out the old happy mummy line, especially on what you say yourself was a very sad thread.

but if you don't hate yourself for it, silkcushion, that's great, really. but she does, that's why she started the thread.

Why is it an old happy mummy line?

I agree if you are happy it doesn't make yr baby happy.

But if you are crying all the time and feeling like shit how can you possibly enjoy yr baby? They pick up on tension and feelings. If you've spent yrs trying to conceive and finally have this wonderful little person that you've waited so long for isn't it a shame to hate every miserable minute of the first few weeks/months.

This is what pisses me off about bf militancy (am on my high horse now). Time with my dd is flying by. I certainly wouldn't want to look back and just remember a load of stress and misery cos then I'd feel guilty about that too!

Rant over

of course it's a shame, it's a terrible shame. but just pointing that out to someone doesn't make the feelings go away. for her, bfing would have made those feelings go away, she was quite clear about that. not ffing, bfing.
and if she couldn't bf, it was suggested that she could try mix feeding, which would interfere with her supply but at the moment it was dwindling anyway so it would be better than nothing. i don't get the militant bfing thing, for me, i could have done with more militant bfers, i had too many people telling me it didn't matter and formula wasn't the worst thing in the world and that made me feel like shit. horses for courses, yes, but all we had to go on was what she was actually typing. if she'd said 'i want to make my peace with ffing' she'd have had different responses.

is it no mans or no-mans? YANBU but wouldn;t want men to be exluded is all

totally agree silk, most people assume that you have a new baby so you must be BFing. I remember being told on here by some idiot who asked why I was FFing she replied "unless you dont have boobs then you can BF there is no other excuse". For a start that was totally insensitive cause for all she knows I may have had my boobs removed she is not to know that and had no right to assume otherwise. I do tend to avoid BF/FF threads for this reason

Okay so is this a stand off between the saggy-boobed caftan wearers and the hard-nosed selfish old bags in magic knickers?

Me? I'm in the middle.

but of course liesel, she was an idiot of the highest order. but hardly representative of the whole of the mn bfing thread.

But supporting the woman to carry on bf isn't going to make her happy either if she then has to give up. Surely part of being supportive is to make her feel better no matter what her final choice is. I can fully understand why she was desperately unhappy. You should have seen me trying to bf sometimes - I could spend a morning in tears during those first 8 weeks with DS1. But we have to allow people room to fail on this one thing and not feel that they are a failure as a person and as a mother.

She was desperately unhappy and she did want to bf but if she ultimately couldn't, then what then? Do we leave her to slide into PND because she can't come to terms with that.

You are a braver woman than me for saying so, Silkcushion, but there is an edge of militancy about some posts that you don't get with the ffers who tend to be defensive rather than agressive in their stance. Extremism isn't nice though - no matter which side you are on.

No its not, go back and read the thread

Monkeytrousers I think it's a moot point now. No Man's Land has rapidly become the front line.

I've certainly got my tin hat on.

Aitch I didnt say that she represented the entire BF brigade but some of the BF brigade need to be aware of others feelings cause its not as simple as "if you have boobs then you BF"