Women in 'men's' jobs

[WhiteVanWoman91]

Leading on from the thread about why trade/construction jobs aren't more widely considered outside of the working class, I feel the same way that they're never really something us females are ever told much about.

WC lads often do pretty shit at school, but then end up ok after finding a trade. Maybe not earning £100k bigshot money but £40k+. However, I feel wc class women often end up in shit retail jobs or serving coffee etc.

I'm a female trucker in the construction industry, getting all my qualifications for site management etc. Trying to decide whether I'd rather be in transport or site management. But right now I love my job and earn circa £40k in an environment I Iike. Hate offices tbh.

I think despite people saying that male dominated sectors are hostile to women, I reckon many wc women would feel less intimidated in the sort of environment I work in than in a corporate office. They'd be working with the kind of guys they're married to, grew up with, and less likely to feel looked down on - people tend to be pretty snobby in this country even if most people claim to value 'diversity'.

I feel like a lot of women moan about 'not enough women in xyz sector' but not many want to lead by example. Will post some pics of some of the women I find inspirational as they seem to be pretty much ignored despite all the talk of male dominated this and that.

@Rugsofhonour and @Ricetwisty - I raised it and the colleague who does school links raised it with the school. I think it might have led to a couple of them going on different courses (inc. a boy doing childcare) but I'll check with her and update here tomorrow.

Re: the children being passive. School links at college is for children not doing the pathway of lots of GCSEs. So they are only 14 and may not be the most confident children / feel they have much agency in their lives.

Incidentally my college has a female Painting and Decorating teacher and is using more girls on its promotional materials for construction. It's an issue that is starting to be addressed currently.

My goal when I left school was to work in the construction industry.
I am in an office based role which is still very male dominated but I’ve found an amazing employer who has allowed me huge flexibility and adjustable part time to work around children.

My problem is I feel I can’t look around to move companies as so many are still behind with flexible and part time work for senior positions

Role models are only part of the story. We need to think about what messages we are sending our children. An example:

eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2019/08/children-s-love-for-stem-on-the-decline-iet-survey-finds/

Parents – the greatest influence on children’s attitudes to subjects and careers – were found to mirror their children’s views on STEM careers. Parents tended to think that their daughters would be most interested in arts, education, childcare, healthcare and hair and beauty, and think that their sons would be most keen on careers in technology, IT, engineering and sport.

I think you are blaming women for 'not wanting to lead the way' instead of looking at the fact that its 2021, we've had equality legislation since the 1970's and there are still male dominated sectors that are actively hostile to women.
Hostility can range from hiring and working practices through to a culture of sexual harassment. This isn't something we've been can fix overnight, we've made some small progress in the last 50 years, but we can only meet them half way.

@WhiteVanWoman91 yes it totally is possible, because that's of course what I meant 😂

[quote Charley50]**@Rugsofhonour* and @Ricetwisty* - I raised it and the colleague who does school links raised it with the school. I think it might have led to a couple of them going on different courses (inc. a boy doing childcare) but I'll check with her and update here tomorrow.

Re: the children being passive. School links at college is for children not doing the pathway of lots of GCSEs. So they are only 14 and may not be the most confident children / feel they have much agency in their lives.

Incidentally my college has a female Painting and Decorating teacher and is using more girls on its promotional materials for construction. It's an issue that is starting to be addressed currently. [/quote]
I used to teach a boy who went on to do childcare at college. He had done it for his work experience in year 10 and loved it and his placement said he was a natural.
There are occasional threads on here though where people are concerned about a man working in a nursery so I don't know how easy it will be for guys like him to get jobs.

I often find myself on building sites for offices as part of my job and the men there at all levels from, site cleanup all the way up to senior construction management, are sexist in the nastiest and most frightening of ways. There are exceptions but the fact that they still work among the men who aren’t exceptions makes me doubt their sanity a a sincerity. I wouldn’t want a daughter of mine or a son for that matter anywhere near that sort of environment.

I have a good female friend though who is a craft joiner/woodworker who does custom furniture and built-ins and that seems ok. She does experience sexism but she’s at the point in her career where her work speaks for itself.

HumbugWhale My DCs have been at 2 nurseries and both had male workers. Both got put with the oldest age group and were promoted as being good to do active/outdoor games with the boys (so still a bit stereotypical). One was also a forest school leader.

Manager in oil and gas in the middle east in engineering. Only sexism I ever encounter is from the British expats. Arabs couldn't care less as long as you do your job and are used to their female relatives being pushed to high profile roles.

(Sorry, actually I think one was with the middle group of kids - but none in the baby room afaik)

My dd has just started uni studying engineering and out of 100 students 10 are girls!

She has wanted to do this for years and even with people saying oh that’s a man’s job or it’ll be all guys you’re working with, she is still determined to succeed.

DH and I ran a garage for about 10 years. I'd say 75-80% of our customers were men, and we'd supply trade too. Of the large trade base we had, only one mechanic was female.

I was the first port of call in the office and on the phone, but encountered sexist attitudes from the odd male customers and occasional employee (soon set that right)!

The nicest bit was speaking to, and being front of house for some female customers who were nervous or had bad experiences in other garages, we had a very loyal customer base.

Having said all that, a heavy physical job is not something we're encouraging our DDs into. If you can do a desk based job, quite honestly your bones and body will thank you for it long term!

@2pinkginsplease

My dd has just started uni studying engineering and out of 100 students 10 are girls!

She has wanted to do this for years and even with people saying oh that’s a man’s job or it’ll be all guys you’re working with, she is still determined to succeed.

10% is actually a good ratio compared to years gone by. Haven't heard anyone declare engineering a man's job for a while mind.

@Namechangeforthis88

Primary school got a female caretaker and she made the male caretakers look like a pair of utter clowns. Why not more female caretakers?

My school has a female caretaker, she rocks!

The same could have been said about any job in the past.

@2pinkginsplease

My dd has just started uni studying engineering and out of 100 students 10 are girls!

She has wanted to do this for years and even with people saying oh that’s a man’s job or it’ll be all guys you’re working with, she is still determined to succeed.

Good for her! Mine finished her MEng this year, her course had a whopping (!) 25% women. I don't think anyone ever tried to deter her since her yr 1 teacher told her girls couldn't be builders, to DDs disgust. She knew even then she wanted to build things and wasn't at all impressed by the girls in her class mostly answering the 'what do you want to be when you grow up' with 'ballet dancer'.

@WhiteVanWoman91 sorry just getting back to you - I don't have links because all my uni work is saved on an external hard drive I put in a drawer away safely so obviously I can't find it

But, I remember reading a report by the "Young Womens Trust" that focused on apprenticeships.

@CheeseMmmm

Exactly. And for those who are strong enough - ie. I am really quite strong - can drag and lift a builders tonne bag of packed in wet leaves. I dont think its strength which is sustainable.

Even my 30s male colleages have had knee issues. After the wet season where loads get heavier due to the water weight in material; I end up in knee support braces every year - when my male colleagues dont.

I just researched and apparently they do have way more cartilage than us women. academic.oup.com/rheumatology/article/42/11/1317/1788427

@CheeseMmmm

Change very good of you to Google for OP.

With the mines women were banned from the job - I can find a link. This caused serious issues in families due to the loss of money coming in. All because of concerns about women, femininity and morals...

Not just that, reducing the labour pool increases wages for the men. Many unions have fought against opening industries up to women on that basis.

@tentative3 yes, there are plenty of male prima donnas among traincrew; one station I know had a second messroom opened to add capacity during covid. Staff from other depots tend to gravitate to the new one to avoid the whinging from the locals.

I'm sure that there is still a diminishing minority of old drivers who still think women shouldn't be allowed in (even though at least one female driver I know started as a secondman long before I was even born, so it's hardly a new concept). They're probably the same ones muttering about "boil-in-the-bag" drivers. There's nothing overt here though, I've never heard it said out loud.

Many unions have fought against opening industries up to women on that basis.

Not sure if it's been mentioned on this thread, but this reminds me that many women who'd perfectly competently filled many jobs during the world wars were kicked out when it was over.

@ErrolTheDragon is that Year 1 teacher still around? I'm sure that their face would be a picture if your daughter went back to tell them where they went wrong.

Talk of disparaging careers advice reminds me of a boy from Scunthorpe who was told by a school careers advisor that he couldn't be a pilot (being from a secondary modern or comprehensive), "you get a job in a factory, young man". He ended up as Red 1, commanding the Red Arrows.

@ErrolTheDragon

Many unions have fought against opening industries up to women on that basis.

Not sure if it's been mentioned on this thread, but this reminds me that many women who'd perfectly competently filled many jobs during the world wars were kicked out when it was over.

The unions have certainly been no friends of women over the years. Carry On Cabby encapsulated it perfectly. A male cab driver was ill and his wife turned up to fill in. The union rep wouldn't have it. Good old fashioned protectionism. Just like how in apartheid South Africa there were jobs (such as locomotive footplate work) reserved for unskilled white men.

Not forgetting that it was the fact that women had so competently filled many jobs which finally pushed through suffrage.

I worked as a construction site engineer in the 80s/90s, and I found it more sexist in the office (with professional males) than on site.

I mucked in on site, did what was required (probably more than) and thanked my co workers. I could just about drive a digger but no way could I ever have the skill of the guys that could peel off a piece of turf, dig a hole, backfill and then relay the turf.

I feel like a lot of women have a very defeatist attitude sometimes. Like moaning about not enough women in a job but then finding all the excuses why they couldn't possibly do the job.

In my job I've found it easier to prove myself than when I worked in a team doing office work. It can never be said that my team carried me etc. I rock up, reverse in, whack chute on, do the pour, then fuck off. If it's all neatly done nobody can say shit, or try to take the credit for themselves.