Women in 'men's' jobs

[WhiteVanWoman91]

Leading on from the thread about why trade/construction jobs aren't more widely considered outside of the working class, I feel the same way that they're never really something us females are ever told much about.

WC lads often do pretty shit at school, but then end up ok after finding a trade. Maybe not earning £100k bigshot money but £40k+. However, I feel wc class women often end up in shit retail jobs or serving coffee etc.

I'm a female trucker in the construction industry, getting all my qualifications for site management etc. Trying to decide whether I'd rather be in transport or site management. But right now I love my job and earn circa £40k in an environment I Iike. Hate offices tbh.

I think despite people saying that male dominated sectors are hostile to women, I reckon many wc women would feel less intimidated in the sort of environment I work in than in a corporate office. They'd be working with the kind of guys they're married to, grew up with, and less likely to feel looked down on - people tend to be pretty snobby in this country even if most people claim to value 'diversity'.

I feel like a lot of women moan about 'not enough women in xyz sector' but not many want to lead by example. Will post some pics of some of the women I find inspirational as they seem to be pretty much ignored despite all the talk of male dominated this and that.

Ok, I didn’t read it properly but we’re getting massively sidetracked over a passing comment which was basically me reflecting that perhaps the physical aspects mentioned in this thread as offputting to women may be part of the reason why men were the main breadwinners in days past when physical jobs were more common. Maybe this isn’t the case. It was a passing comment not based on loads of research. The topic of the thread is about why wc women often end up in low paid jobs.

However, the concerns that caused them to ban women from these job (being seen as unladylike and unfeminine) are still the same things that put some women off today so it is a valid point in that respect. The woman earlier in thread who went to schools to speak to girls said a common criticism is that they were ‘dirty’ jobs and for lesbians.

The concerns were from men. The women did the job as needed the money. Same as the men. It was a dangerous, exhausting, horrible job.

I don't see how you get from-

Men banned women going down coal mines

To

'However, the concerns that caused them to ban women from these job (being seen as unladylike and unfeminine) are still the same things that put some women off today so it is a valid point in that respect. '

Unless you're making a subtle point about social expectations, patriarchal society, and constant enforcement of sex roles from cradle to grave?

Maybe this isn't the case? Maybe?

It's a bit off to post something to prove your point about women not working. Not bother reading it. When pointed out it doesn't back up what you said. Say oh this is a sidetrack let's drop that conversation.

And then say something else that sounds iffy and off we go again...

I think you are trying to make s point about men being expected to earn all the money often in jobs that are hard graft.

While women are historically and currently used to being provided for and so pick and choose work and not interested in things which are physically demanding.

I mean that's what I'm getting.

Of course I could be off the mark. So it would be really good if you could be straightforward about what you're getting at. And why that involves bringing up women not working/ men being breadwinners/ sectors like construction being male dominated.

making a subtle point about social expectations, patriarchal society, and constant enforcement of sex roles from cradle to grave?

No, as I said I was making a passing comment which I then got drawn into discussing. I’m not going spend any more time derailing the thread talking about it. Men didn’t want women going into trades in the 1800s and many don’t seem to be keen on it nowadays. Where do you think young schoolgirls get the idea that the only women who do manual jobs are lesbians?

The nature of a passing comment is that it is often a spontaneous thought. Sometimes it’s a valid point and other times it’s not after further digging. It’s not the same as a well researched argument.

'Men didn’t want women going into trades in the 1800s and many don’t seem to be keen on it nowadays.'

You mean that many men are hostile to women in those roles?

Yes for sure. I've seen it and plenty of PPs agree.

That is s part of the answer to your OP re why don't more women go into those roles.

'Where do you think young schoolgirls get the idea that the only women who do manual jobs are lesbians?'

Sorry lost. You mean men make schoolgirls think that?
What do lesbians have to do with anything?
Can you elaborate?

Sorry lost. You mean men make schoolgirls think that?
What do lesbians have to do with anything?
Can you elaborate?

Two posts up I said: ’ The woman earlier in thread who went to schools to speak to girls said a common criticism is that they were ‘dirty’ jobs and for lesbians.’

I’m saying that young girls don’t get these ideas out of the blue.

They get them from men? I can't see that. It's more a societal thing. Surely.

You agree that one reason is hostility from men in those roles though. I mean for sure that's a big problem.

@Changemusthappen

In my experience the construction industry is very sexist and it would be very difficult to work in a trade as a woman. I may be generalising but men in these types of jobs don't take well to a woman being as good if not better than them, which frankly isn't difficult. Lastly I have found that men don't want to deal with a woman and certainly don't want to be told what to do by one.

I think this is changing pretty rapidly. My DS is a tiler on high-rise construction sites and he has said that about 10% of the tilers are now women. The owner provides women's toilets ( they are obviously porta-potty style but the women do get designated ones). He said the men really like having a mix of sexes, since many of them remember the days when you wouldn't see a woman on site at all , which isn't normal !

I'm glad that this is happening - in the past there was no real option for women to do trades . They can make good money, and many of them progress to owning their own businesses.

The only down side is the hours - most construction trades have to start very early since that is how the workplace functions. A tradesperson can't decide to work school-friendly hours, since the workplace opens and shuts at a certain time and then the place is closed securely.

I worked for 15 years in a heavily make dominated engineering field. I was told not to have babies. I was not allowed to go to some places because I was a greater insurance (kidnap) risk. I was physically intimidated and groped.
I eventually had to leave, despite loving the job, because I couldn't juggle children and work.
I am now an invisible 50 year old teacher. I would love to return to engineering but can't see a route back in.

@starrynight21 - as pp have said, healthcare and care home work can entail night shifts and odd hours constantly changing on a rota. Pretty hard to manage with childcare too - but maybe now has more part time opportunities (still have to do rota though).

Stuff to do with physical activity does seem to put off females though - like less sport uptake in schoolgirls. I think this is likely to be a societal thing. However - nursing, caring and cleaning can also be incredibly physical jobs - and doesn’t seem to put women off.

I work in a college. I was talking to a group of school-links girls who were doing Hair & Beauty. I asked them why they had chosen this option. They said they hadn't chosen it. School had. The boys from their school had been sent to Construction. Some of them would have liked to have been put on a construction course. I raised it with my colleague to raise with the school. Vocational courses are still very much divided by sex.

@Charley50

I work in a college. I was talking to a group of school-links girls who were doing Hair & Beauty. I asked them why they had chosen this option. They said they hadn't chosen it. School had. The boys from their school had been sent to Construction. Some of them would have liked to have been put on a construction course. I raised it with my colleague to raise with the school. Vocational courses are still very much divided by sex.

Why didn't they apply for college themselves? Or ask to change courses? Feedback to the school? Seems a bit passive to just say ah well guess that's me studying something I don't want to for a few years. Are young people that passive now?

I work in construction - was site based for many years - senior management now.

I've never encountered any overt sexism - the opposite really. The men tend to treat me as one of the boys I suspect. Yes the "banter" on site isn't exactly PC but that's part and parcel of working in construction - that's why I love it - I don't want it change. The women I've come across who've struggled are the ones that have come in with a chip on their shoulder about being a woman in a man's industry. That automatically consider themselves disadvantaged or the victim without having being treated as so.

I was privately educated - careers day was about teaching, medicine or finding a rich husband. Disappointingly I think it's still like that. I do a table at the careers day at my old school every year and girls just aren't interested

Railway work generally has good pay and conditions. Yes, there's shift work involved which can make childcare difficult (though that should apply equally to fathers as it does to mothers) but there are plenty who make it work. There are even a few couples who both work on the railways, arranging shift swaps where necessary to ensure that one of the couple is around for the school drop off, the other for the school pick up. Facilities are fine on the passenger side, though some parts of the freight sector have some way to go in terms of toilet provision (engineering possessions where you're expected to urinate behind a bush for example).

We don't have to urinate behind bushes but at my depot the only female train crew toilet is up a flight of stairs and is often used by men anyway when they're using the other rooms up there or want a quiet shit. The shower had been broken for years and there was resistance towards fixing it because "do we even have any women who use it" - including from a female member of senior management. At my old depot the only shower was in the men's toilets.

I'm a train driver and it is still very male dominated and very sexist. A lot of it is benign sexism - I know there is no such thing but I use the phrase as a shortcut to describe the sort of behaviour which is well intentioned but sexist nonetheless. There is also a much nastier undercurrent from a minority who suggest we only get our jobs because we tick a box etc. In my experience this is much less prevalent in the guard's role. There are no female fitters that I encounter at all.

It is a well paid industry with few formal barriers to recruitment, excellent pension and sick leave and once you're in, very flexible in terms of being able to arrange shift swaps, on passenger side at least. However the training at the beginning and while doing your hours is not flexible at all.

It is incredibly non PC and sometimes lines are crossed but I love the environment generally and would recommend it as an option for other women.

On the bitching and gossip front the men are awful and so are the women!

I used to drive a tractor, would’ve loved a shot of a digger.

@Canigoonroblox - there is a theme park called digger land where you can try out some of the controls

One thing I will say about plant work - diggers, telehandlers, cranes etc is that it's really very solitary. It's you alone in the cab for hours at a time. I think that puts off a lot of people, maybe particularly women. There's none of the camaraderie you get in factories or hospitality or in retail.

Many "traditional" male jobs are very physical and tough on the body.

My DH is plasterer and tiler, and so are most of the males in his family. They all have wrecked knees, backs and elbows from all the lifting and bending down.

Before he retired, his dad had to diversify and go into plumbing and electrics as he just couldn't physically do the job anymore and you can see the impact it had on his body compared to my dad who was a doctor and never did any of that physical labour. It's tough.

And I do think that plays a part in why women don't do those jobs. You have to be very strong and able to deal with a good amount of physical pain too. I certainly couldn't do what DH does day in, day out.

I work in a physical/outdoors job in a very female industry (animal care - dog walking to be specific) and I love it but I meet loads of women who say they couldn't do what I do everyday.

@SeemingSeamstress

more female HGV drivers, wind farm workers, plumbers, electricians, carpenters and so on.

Lots of practical barriers and stuff that puts my female engineers off staying in the sector tbh. Example offered above

Working conditions for truck drivers are awful which is why there's a shortage.