Women in 'men's' jobs

[WhiteVanWoman91]

Leading on from the thread about why trade/construction jobs aren't more widely considered outside of the working class, I feel the same way that they're never really something us females are ever told much about.

WC lads often do pretty shit at school, but then end up ok after finding a trade. Maybe not earning £100k bigshot money but £40k+. However, I feel wc class women often end up in shit retail jobs or serving coffee etc.

I'm a female trucker in the construction industry, getting all my qualifications for site management etc. Trying to decide whether I'd rather be in transport or site management. But right now I love my job and earn circa £40k in an environment I Iike. Hate offices tbh.

I think despite people saying that male dominated sectors are hostile to women, I reckon many wc women would feel less intimidated in the sort of environment I work in than in a corporate office. They'd be working with the kind of guys they're married to, grew up with, and less likely to feel looked down on - people tend to be pretty snobby in this country even if most people claim to value 'diversity'.

I feel like a lot of women moan about 'not enough women in xyz sector' but not many want to lead by example. Will post some pics of some of the women I find inspirational as they seem to be pretty much ignored despite all the talk of male dominated this and that.

My DD is an electrical engineer. Ingrained sexism aside, the basics aren't in place - PPE is "unisex", so no good for a slim, 5ft 4in woman. Gloves are huge and designed for man's hands. Toilets on sites are hit and miss, and provision for periods are mostly miss.
A lot of posters have touched on long hours and irregular shifts putting women off careers in construction. Until men are take equal responsibility for caring for children / elderly parents, this culture will remain.

I think an interesting thought is that it’s possible that the things that prevent many women from going into manual jobs are the same reasons why men became the main breadwinner in the first place (as most jobs would’ve been more manual a couple hundred years ago).

Women worked in all sorts of jobs including manual 100 years ago

Not sure what you're referring to ?

I feel a bit sceptical that a sexist working environment or the nature of the shift pattern are the whole story here, though no doubt it's part of it. Plenty of female dominated jobs have inflexible irregular shift patterns (nursing, waitressing, retail, care work) and if you are low paid you often have little say over your working pattern. And if the hostile working place is what is putting women off, I would expect more women to join these careers and then to leave. I think the workplace would sort itself out if more women joined - if there is only one woman on site I can see why there might not be a female bathroom, though it's unpleasant for that one woman but there may be a chicken and egg issue here where you don't get a female friendly workplace until there are a certain number of women there.

I suspect a strong factor is expectations as to where girls' interests are going to lie from when they are very young and girls being less likely to help with diy and other practical tasks from an early age. That was perhaps even more true twenty years ago, when a lot of the people currently working in these roles were growing up (my husband used to go to the shed with his grandfather to do DIY while his sister did baking with her grandmother and it is unsurprisingly my husband who is the engineer).

For some of these roles, I would guess physical strength plays a part, particularly at entry level. We have had a lot of work done on our house recently and it struck me how physical the work of the apprentice was (carrying heavy ceramics and materials up and down stairs etc.). If that is what is being selected for, men are more likely to have it and even for women who do have or could have that level of physical strength they might be perceived not to. That doesn't really explain why there are so few female electricians or truckers though. That said, I wouldn't say that the standard of trades people overall is particularly high in the UK so I would think there is space for competent women there.

My husband is a mechanical engineer by background and now in software. Women are still massively underrepresented in both, despite loads of initiatives to try to get women interested. Both of these are potentially flexible, well-paid careers which could fit well around having a family (much more family friendly than law, which is what I went for). Most of the companies he has worked for have been desperate to hire women and throw a lot of money at diversity schemes to little effect. Women effectively have a guaranteed interview. At his university almost every woman studying engineering was given a £3k scholarship from a special woman's fund. Ay my university only about 10% of engineers were women and the majority of those were overseas students from China or India. My husband hasn't witnessed much overt sexism (though appreciate it may not be something he notices) and HR departments in large tech / engineering firms would tend to stamp on it hard if they knew about it because addressing the gender imbalance is a priority for them. There's no inherent reason that women shouldn't be very successful in these careers. But they are still hugely underrepresented.

I'm the only female firefighter at my station, luckily not experienced sexism in the 4ish years I've been there.

Also worked as a labourer for many years and same there, the builders I worked with have always been great and supportive of a female in the industry. I've never had to work on a site with porta Loos, always in peoples houses, so not had to deal with that side of thing.
I couldn't do the work I do without having my husband available at home/flexible working to do school runs etc.

@Porcupineintherough

As a MC woman who works in a male dominated industry I'd say sexism is a huge problem amongst WC men, far more so than among MC ones (or maybe more overt). And the sexism they show WC women is even worse than that I've experienced and I've experienced plenty over the years.

I would say that the sexism is just the same, it's just that middle class men are better at hiding their prejudices.

I'm a (male) railway guard. A group of girls (early teens) on one of my trains earlier this year asked me if women could drive trains. To which my answer was an astonished "of course they do, why couldn't they?" It seemed such a daft question to ask in the 21st Century, it was a bit disappointing that these girls (all born well after the millenium) still assumed that there were careers barred to them (other than a handful of niche exceptions such as Catholic priests). Then I told them that female train drivers are actually statistically safer than the male ones.

Railway work generally has good pay and conditions. Yes, there's shift work involved which can make childcare difficult (though that should apply equally to fathers as it does to mothers) but there are plenty who make it work. There are even a few couples who both work on the railways, arranging shift swaps where necessary to ensure that one of the couple is around for the school drop off, the other for the school pick up. Facilities are fine on the passenger side, though some parts of the freight sector have some way to go in terms of toilet provision (engineering possessions where you're expected to urinate behind a bush for example).

IME + anecdata!

I find the insidious, concealed sexism of many MC men much worse than a lot of the overt sexism from.. WC men...

Incidentally. The class thing is tricky to define. And you get overt sexism from men across society and concealed as well...

And plenty of men from backgrounds which would be seen as WC are in office jobs...

So that's all a bit tricky!

But. Yes. With a man who's WC by the terms we're using says something out of line you can tell them to fuck off. And that's generally taken in a good natured way. I mean not saying the sexism on sites and etc etc doesn't happen but it's all more blunt. Obvious. Iyswim.

With your MC sexist types who conceal it. There's a lot of 'interested in your view as a woman' or 'you're interested in feminism what do you think about this' and then they 'debate' which actually means tell you that men are hard done by and women get special treatment and etc. Plus a load of behind the scenes stuff which fuck women's opportunities etc. All of it.

@CheeseMmmm

Women worked in all sorts of jobs including manual 100 years ago

Not sure what you're referring to ?

You don't think jobs were more physical back in 1821?

Weren't any call center, IT, market research, etc jobs back then.

I also feel that the resentment towards women. The certainty that women (and other minority groups) are getting 'special treatment', getting opportunities unfairly.

It's the thing that back in the 70s/80s men would say oh who got the thing let me guess a one legged black lesbian hahaha. Exactly the same thing decades later.

IME men who work in the sort of jobs being discussed here don't have that.

Maybe because there hasn't been a big change in who does those sorts of jobs.

So... If lots of women suddenly were working as roofers, plumbers etc. Would the resentment grow in the same way?

Whitevan... ?

100 years ago was 1921. You did say 100 I think? Sorry if misread.

Yes there were loads more physical jobs back then. Not sure what you mean by that either?

Would it be helpful to say what you mean I feel like you're driving at something but I'm not sure what.

Haven’t read the full thread but I often think about this.

I’m doing a low level role in a profession and striving to study and progress so that I can make £30k when I could easily clear that doing a ‘man job’.

Presumably they’re not as family friendly as many office jobs are beginning to be though.

My DH does a job that would be something the OP is referring to and he makes around £37k. Not a qualification to his name other than Standard Grades. Tbf he works long hours for that money though which I imagine is the case for a lot of these jobs. They’re not doing 40 hours for that money.

@Hotelhelp

Haven’t read the full thread but I often think about this.

I’m doing a low level role in a profession and striving to study and progress so that I can make £30k when I could easily clear that doing a ‘man job’.

Presumably they’re not as family friendly as many office jobs are beginning to be though.

My DH does a job that would be something the OP is referring to and he makes around £37k. Not a qualification to his name other than Standard Grades. Tbf he works long hours for that money though which I imagine is the case for a lot of these jobs. They’re not doing 40 hours for that money.

I said a couple of hundred years. However, it was just a passing comment that the physical nature of jobs is possibly what resulted in it becoming standard for men to be the breadwinner in the first place.

Loads of men work in not particularly well paid office roles though. Plenty of men in retail at the moment round here. And things like estate agent, lettings. Can't imagine they're always particularly well paid.

Call centres I often get men picking up.

Yes the trades are vv male for sure.

But men do lots and lots of other things as well!

Doh, meant to quote CheeseMmmm.

I do also find that women are more likely to moan but do nothing. Probably an unpopular comment but true IMO. There are a lot more women chirping in about ‘lack of women in xyz’ than there are willing to try their hand at xyz.

Men tend to be more proactive and I sometimes wonder if it’s because men have never been to rely on their partner for provision like women have for most of history. It could have quite possibly even become an evolutionary/genetic characteristic by now.

What are the ‘female’ equivalent was of these jobs? Are there any?

Cheese says there are plenty of men in the low paid office and retail jobs but are there maybe women earning £35-40k with no qualifications in non stereotypically male roles I wonder.

‘Been able to’ that should be

@Hotelhelp

What are the ‘female’ equivalent was of these jobs? Are there any?

Cheese says there are plenty of men in the low paid office and retail jobs but are there maybe women earning £35-40k with no qualifications in non stereotypically male roles I wonder.

I have no evidence but I suspect that higher earning women is more a middle class thing

Whitevan-

You're stating things that aren't right though.

100, 200 years ago. You said women didn't work and so men were the ones who brought in the money.

But women have always worked. We have been banned from various jobs at various points- by men. Eg going down mines.

There's a lot of information and history that you aren't aware of. To state oh women didn't work 100, 200 years ago. Is just wrong. You can't just post anything you like and then when told it's not accurate just sort of. Wave it away and basically repeat what you said before.

If you're interested in these things then don't you want to find out more? When I find something I thought is wrong I think really that's interesting and go and look into it. Learn more.

Aren't you interested in women and work 100/ 200 years ago in UK?

@Hotelhelp

What are the ‘female’ equivalent was of these jobs? Are there any?

Cheese says there are plenty of men in the low paid office and retail jobs but are there maybe women earning £35-40k with no qualifications in non stereotypically male roles I wonder.

Labourers etc have qualifications.

I’m more referring back to my own post where I referenced my DH who earns a decent (by Scottish standards anyway!) without any.

@Hotelhelp

What are the ‘female’ equivalent was of these jobs? Are there any?

Cheese says there are plenty of men in the low paid office and retail jobs but are there maybe women earning £35-40k with no qualifications in non stereotypically male roles I wonder.

I think so. In my sector there are lots of 'entry level' roles. And opportunities if you are good and want them.

I mean that's true generally I think?

Now the qualifications have got a bit silly but lots of companies rolling back on the degrees for filling job type stuff.

I started work as a temp at big local company doing filling. In fact I often ask when I meet people at work and the vast majority started as temps at big local company!

Were good offered role on X team. Trained up (no specific courses etc). If good. Lead a team. Manage a dept. Move to other companies for better role. Develop interest in specific area and shift. For some get job with more specialised employers. Sky is the limit if you are intelligent, work hard, deliver results, get on with people etc.

In retail there's progression manage section, store. Move to head office.. Get into logistics or sourcing new lines or whatever.

Very few office jobs are truly dead end really, I don't think.

@Hotelhelp

I’m more referring back to my own post where I referenced my DH who earns a decent (by Scottish standards anyway!) without any.

DH has a degree. He works in a role with no related formal quals in a vv male public sector thing.

I think he earns a v decent wage for what he does.

I think there's a lot of assumptions on the thread which is totally understandable because we generally only know about things family friends etc do iyswim.

'I have no evidence but I suspect that higher earning women is more a middle class thing'.

Class is a very subjective thing, hope we are all on the same page! I bet we're not.

Is it level of education, what jobs parents have, where grew up etc?

Anyway yes there are plenty of women I know who earn well who don't have degrees, nor do parents who had dad in trades etc if that's what's meant. Putting aside the fact plenty of people with parents not in office work or whatever do get degrees and etc...

But anyway. That doesn't sound like a fair assumption. I mean if you mean it's rare for women with certain backgrounds or whatever to rarely earn well. What do you mean by higher earning though that is relevant!

I’m not sure if we are thinking along the same lines. I’m maybe not expressing myself properly.

It sounds like you’re talking about people progressing into higher paid roles via on the job training and experience rather than going to uni and going in that way. Working up the way, taking on more responsibility etc. I’m certainly not denying that happens.

I think I’m more talking about men working in roles (generally more physical), not having to manage anyone, not having worked their way up or anything like that but probably earning more than the person in my first paragraph and from their first day on the job.

I don’t want to name the job my DH does but I feel like I know so many men earning £35-38k which is good money here in Scotland and they are just turning up, putting in a shift and going home. I just can’t think of the current female equivalent of these types of job. To make that money I do think we generally need to do more, think more, manage more people etc.

I’m waffling a bit! I just think we’re maybe at cross purposes.