Women in 'men's' jobs

[WhiteVanWoman91]

Leading on from the thread about why trade/construction jobs aren't more widely considered outside of the working class, I feel the same way that they're never really something us females are ever told much about.

WC lads often do pretty shit at school, but then end up ok after finding a trade. Maybe not earning £100k bigshot money but £40k+. However, I feel wc class women often end up in shit retail jobs or serving coffee etc.

I'm a female trucker in the construction industry, getting all my qualifications for site management etc. Trying to decide whether I'd rather be in transport or site management. But right now I love my job and earn circa £40k in an environment I Iike. Hate offices tbh.

I think despite people saying that male dominated sectors are hostile to women, I reckon many wc women would feel less intimidated in the sort of environment I work in than in a corporate office. They'd be working with the kind of guys they're married to, grew up with, and less likely to feel looked down on - people tend to be pretty snobby in this country even if most people claim to value 'diversity'.

I feel like a lot of women moan about 'not enough women in xyz sector' but not many want to lead by example. Will post some pics of some of the women I find inspirational as they seem to be pretty much ignored despite all the talk of male dominated this and that.

@WhiteVanWoman91 that's an attitude which comes easily to you. If you have anxiety, depression, low self esteem or are just really young then it's much harder to have that self belief that you can go against the naysayers.
Fwiw I work in a prison environment. Now I can walk onto the communal areas and feel the leers/ hatred and not be bothered. There's no way I could do this at 18. My colleague was folllowed home by someone's visitor who then fed back to them where she lived. The reason women feel scared in a lot of male dominated spaces is because men are scary. The news proves this!
I would completely understand why a 17 year old apprentice, who is navigating her sexual boundaries and might have been coerced or abused in the past, wouldn't want to be alone in a workplace with a load of men.

I feel like a lot of women have a very defeatist attitude sometimes. Like moaning about not enough women in a job but then finding all the excuses why they couldn't possibly do the job.

I doubt any women would talk openly to you, given your dismissive attitude. So if you have had any conversations with women face to face about their experiences in male dominated industries, I doubt you are getting the full story from them.

Being frightened or sexually harassed at work is not an excuse, its a reason.

I doubt any women would talk openly to you, given your dismissive attitude. So if you have had any conversations with women face to face about their experiences in male dominated industries, I doubt you are getting the full story from them.

Being frightened or sexually harassed at work is not an excuse, its a reason.

I'm not convinced that fear is the main reason women don't want to become engineers etc.

What do you think the real reason is?

Do you have a specific type of engineering in mind?

Was just googling about it top testing interesting-

hbr.org/amp/2016/08/why-do-so-many-women-who-study-engineering-leave-the-field

I was at work this week
My male colleagues were freely discussing something which included derogatory comments about women (no need to specify here)
I think they forgot that I was there
I made a funny comment, which made them all laugh & the conversation changed topic

However, I can imagine that a woman of a more feminine disposition would be greatly offended & put in an official complaint

I'm not saying that it is right
The comments were not directed at me, just in general

How many people would put up with this kind of behaviour?

I think this kind of thing puts off some females

I've even been asked about working with "men" in some interviews

In my sector/ work history I've never known a woman do that. Maybe we should more? Rather than trying to deal with every single thing on our own.

A friend at work was sexually assaulted and even then she wasn't sure what to do. Report or leave it etc.

Complaining about blokes chatting well I never have I don't think it would end well for me.

Worst was probably a man starting to tell me and some blokes around his desk about paying for sex.. He didn't use words quite like that though. I was sitting with him and we were in the middle of looking into something when he decided to change the subject..

I feel like a lot of women have a very defeatist attitude sometimes. Like moaning about not enough women in a job but then finding all the excuses why they couldn't possibly do the job.

When are "excuses" reasons. When is a "defeatist attitude" actually an honest appraisal of realistic chances of reward for effort put in. How many times do you expect individual women to be able to fight the system?
Perhaps you were lucky enough to not grow up somewhere where girls are told that particular toys are only for boys, and that they are only valuable for their looks and as sex objects: but the rest of us were not. We are surrounded by such messages more than ever now in the days of the internet, and girls and women who defy them are not welcome, wanted, or tolerated.

@HelloDulling

OP, in your industry, what are the expected working hours? Could a parent (male or female) arrive at 9:15, after the school run? And take leave if a child is sick? Part of the reason women end up in poorly paid jobs is the flexibility that they allow for anyone with caring responsibilities.

And yet those of us who are lone parents manage to work full time and provide for our children and do everything else. Hmmmm.... a lot more of this is a choice that people pretend.

I started in my engineering career 25 yrs ago. I'm 40.
Today I had a 'customer' approach me, 'Are you an engineer? (Big hearty laugh)'
Me 'Yes'.
Him 'Oh.....Right.'

I had another, also today, 'Alright love, do you know what these are? (holds up a bag of bolts)'
Me 'Yes, they're the fittings to attach the x/y/z'
Him 'I know. I just wondered if you did'

And previously, 'No offence love, mind if I speak to one of the lads?'

There's a long way to go.

One of the barriers to becoming a plumber / electrician, etc, is the idea of going into the homes of so many strangers. Often putting yourself in vulnerable positions, literally - lying down on the floor to check services, etc. I’d worry that one day, eventually, my luck would run out. Don’t know if that’s a rational fear, but would deter me.

My male colleagues were freely discussing something which included derogatory comments about women (no need to specify here)

I've had that in a couple of workplaces, and when I've pulled them up on it, they've said, "Oh, you don't count, you're one of us!" It's nice to know they see me that way, but it seems to be at the expense of recognising me as a woman, and in any case, they shouldn't be talking like that in the workplace whether a,woman is there or not.

I once went to a women in IT event, and one of the speakers said, "you do tend to get a particular type of woman doing this sort of work," - because you do need to be thick-skinned at times, obstinate and assertive, to survive, when you're the only one, and on a daily basis, it's okay, but over the years - it's death by 1000 cuts, the cumulative effect of all those little things that were meaningless on their own. What I've seen happen in IT a lot, and I suspect happens in a lotof other male-dominated workplaces, is that the women grit their teeth and carry on, but when something happens to force their hand on thinking about their career, such as redundancy, (and I've seen a few departments lose their token woman in a round of redundancy, because she just doesn't fit in so well, doesn't seem to be such a team player... because none of you included her, or shared the knowledge like you did with you male colleagues,) or maternity, then that's where they decide they're sick of battling this shit all the time, and they can do something else where they won't have to do twice as well as the men to be seen as as good as them, or won't miss out on that promotion when men who aren't quite as good are somehow worthy of it. And over years, it's exhausting.

This piece in the Times today is more about professional engineers than 'trades' ... somewhat depressing but at least the problem is being recognised now.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-and-minorities-are-lost-in-engineering-brain-drain-z8ssxqh5q?shareToken=6b0c5696a7780b4ac6d0f8967159bf28

A lot of these "men's jobs" are not very family friendly. And childcare/school hours is a thing that mainly concerns women unfortunately.

@FuckingPissedOff

I feel like a lot of women have a very defeatist attitude sometimes. Like moaning about not enough women in a job but then finding all the excuses why they couldn't possibly do the job.

When are "excuses" reasons. When is a "defeatist attitude" actually an honest appraisal of realistic chances of reward for effort put in. How many times do you expect individual women to be able to fight the system?
Perhaps you were lucky enough to not grow up somewhere where girls are told that particular toys are only for boys, and that they are only valuable for their looks and as sex objects: but the rest of us were not. We are surrounded by such messages more than ever now in the days of the internet, and girls and women who defy them are not welcome, wanted, or tolerated.

Some of us ignore the messages and do what we want.

where they won't have to do twice as well as the men to be seen as as good as them, or won't miss out on that promotion when men who aren't quite as good are somehow worthy of it.

My ex flatmate actually got a pay rise by bursting into tears in the review meeting and saying it wasn't fair that other people had got one - she always had a touch of the drama. She got given an extra £5k despite not ever really going the extra mile from what I can see. Turning on the waterworks doesn't really work for men!

Maybe it wasn't fair.

You didn't work there how could you know?

Most women don't go around bursting into tears to manipulate men by the way that's another misogynist idea.

I'm on I think 3 threads you're on and I can't help but notice that you seem to have a very definite view of women. Ones that aren't you obv!

Pick and choose whether to work or not and expect men to provide
Pick and choose comfy jobs leaving the others to men who they expect to provide
Are key players in luring women in nightclubs for men to rape

Is there anything you think women do that's positive?

I work in engineering, specifically oil and gas. All our grads, male and female, start on the same salary, they all receive the same training towards their professional chartership. After qualification we strongly encourage them to take advantage of the considerable overseas assignments on offer working in a fabrication yard or construction site. These postings are an invaluable tool in terms of building up experience and confidence in the individuals concerned. On top of that they are great way to save a wedge of cash as you have all your accommodation and overheads paid for as well as a daily uplift in your salary. Plus there is the adventure of working in a different culture / environment. Typically the male grads are the ones getting all excited at the prospect of an overseas appointment and it is generally the female grads who wish stay in the home office, we can't force them to go, and often they don't. It is no surprise that the ones returning from 18 months or so overseas are generally stronger more experienced engineers and project managers, often given more responsibility on the projects they return to which leads to greater promotion opportunities.

While the industry is still male dominated it is slowly moving towards being a more gender equal profession. One thing that I have noticed is that nearly all the senior lead female engineers I work with are not from the UK, they are from other O&G centres from around the world, Nigeria, Kazakhstan, Algeria, Brazil, Malaysia etc. It makes for a very colourful and cosmopolitan work place but generally they are ones who were happy to do the above 'hardship' locations and progress their careers and generally overtake the female Brit engineers who wanted a regular 9-5 job with no travel.

Senior women in a very male dominant white collar job.

Undoubtedly sexist men are a major problem but let's not excuse our own gender. Have received some of the bitchiest abuse from women - about my strength, brains, thinking I am better than them etc.

Unless we stop stabbing our own gender in the back as women, then we have no chance of altering attitudes. Last horrendous episode of a woman denigrating women in my role - 2 days ago - teams meeting, absolute rant.

We have a long way to go but sex discrimination is way down the list of everyones priorities at the moment - it does appear that to be rude to a woman is considered acceptable and I would say in the last 18 months I have experienced more sexist behaviour from the younger generation than the older.

Poor role models and poor behaviour from our own gender compounded by male sexist attitudes is a hard world to over come.

@NeedsCharging

It's not that women don't want to lead by example it's they can't. We are penalised by our reproductive capacity. We may want to do those jobs and have the skills and knowledge to do those jobs but we may need to take time out...men don't don't. That's why they are favoured.

That's bollocks. Women have to take time out in every industry at every pay level, there is not a special rule for trades.

Pregnant women surely need to stop work earlier and take more recovery time if in a physically demanding job, than an office job. In retail move to a less physical job if in warehouse etc.

A 5 month pregnant woman working as a roofer surely sounds like not a great idea...

Office you can work until birth and back after 2 weeks if you wish.

I know one woman who did that. Wouldn't fancy it myself tbh. Was still bleeding like a fucker for ages after, getting to grips with bf and doing it every couple hours, had a CS so prob not ideal to Don heavy backpack and stand on tube for an hour each way, etc etc.

But she did it. Well bottle and nanny but can be done.

I don't think it would be the same in a physical job at all.

The whole OP is strange though.

Loads of men don't go into roles that are mainly women, even if lucrative.

And plenty of men are happy in offices etc and would not fancy being in the trades esp ones outside all weathers and physically demanding.

The question could be. Why do so many young men go into whatever role with little prospect of ££ when they could be PAs (who can and do earn extremely well if good).

If you work up a really high crane you piss in a receptacle bottle bucket whatever. The cabin is not huge. Is that an attractive option for women?

I mean there's stuff like that to consider. Apart from all the other things mentioned...

I worked in a warehouse (in the office) but I shared the facilities with the factory workers, There was one toilet for women with no sanitary bins, all the (male) bosses expected women to collect their cups and make them tea I outright refused but they'd just use all the cups until there's none left, the bosses thought it better not to invest in a dishwasher either, you could go and sue for discrimination if you wanted but it's expensive and time consuming and stressful. with no guarantee of success, easiest thing is usually to move jobs.

In the same factory, if the mens loo was busy they just strolled into the womens. I have also had a lot of trouble with men wolf whistling me, calling out to me and generally trying to intimidate me. I hold my head up but it's hard and it is intimidating. I have enough going on in life to not bother.

I left and wfh now and I'm happy doing this, my hours are easy and predictable I'm there for my dc. I could not think of many trades working like this. Good for you though OP.