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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be fed up with people misgendering DP (not trans)

503 replies

SarahAndQuack · 12/11/2021 22:56

My partner is female, as am I, and we have a daughter who recently started school. DP has always had the odd person be confused about her gender, but when we got together there was a big surge in people assuming she was a man, and when DD was born, even more so. DD is nearly five now, and I still find people glance at DP and assume she's a man. I'm posting because one of the school mums - and DD goes to a tiny rural school so there are only a handful of us - has still not clocked that DP is a woman. I was at the school gate chatting and she asked about my husband, so I replied my partner's a woman, and she clearly didn't know what to say.

I find it frustrating because, if you actually bother to look at DP, you can see she's a woman. She always wears jeans or trousers (but women's jeans or trousers), and usually a shirt or a hoodie. Sometimes the shirts are from the menswear section, but the hoodies are generally Seasalt women's. Her hair is short, but so is mine, and no one ever mistakes me for a man. She wears unisex doc martens, but so do lots of women. She's all of 5'8 so not exactly a towering masculine height.

I am aware people misgender her mostly out of kneejerk, unconscious bias: they see one woman (me) and another person, and they automatically decide the other person must be a man. Or they see me and DD and decide the other person must be the dad.

But it's really starting to bother me, because DD is getting old enough to start wondering about what people say, and she is trying to understand what makes someone a man or a woman. She is getting a clear message that her mum is doing womanhood 'wrong', and that people don't think she is a woman, and she's started asking us why. I don't know what to say - and I don't know how to respond to people misgendering DP in a way that is still friendly, but does get across that it's not ok?

OP posts:
Soontobe60 · 13/11/2021 15:43

@doublemonkey

It's a sign of the times OP, that lesbians have become so marginalised and invisible the general population don't recognise one when they see one.

If Stonewall could get their head out of their arse and do the job they were set up to do this type of thing would be a thing of the past.

What does a lesbian look like? Is there a checklist? I have to confess I don’t know the sexuality of the vast majority of people I see out and about probably because I was off school the day they did lesbian identification lessons! The fact that you think there’s a way to identify which females are and which aren’t lesbians is more than a tad homophobic.
Megalameg · 13/11/2021 16:05

@ChateauMargaux

You assume people are mistaking her for a trans man when they are probably just mistaking her for a slightly feminine man.
The majority of people are not “soft butch” (OP’s words) lesbians either so why should people assume someone who they believe looks and acts like a man, who is in a couple with a woman is a lesbian woman?

Your seeing this through hysteria surrounding the feminist trans battle so you assume people think she’s a trans man but the Mums at school pick probably just think that she’s an actual man who’s kind of feminine and don’t want to pry any more than that.

Megalameg · 13/11/2021 16:07

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

Loads of men didn’t wear make up in the 80’s lol. Not unless you take glam rockers to be representative of men in the 80’s.

TreXX · 13/11/2021 16:11

[quote Megalameg]@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

Loads of men didn’t wear make up in the 80’s lol. Not unless you take glam rockers to be representative of men in the 80’s.[/quote]
Yeah, they did

Megalameg · 13/11/2021 16:13

@TreXX

Lol - like who? Actors on stage? Freddie Mercury?

TreXX · 13/11/2021 16:18

[quote Megalameg]@TreXX

Lol - like who? Actors on stage? Freddie Mercury?[/quote]
My friends

MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry · 13/11/2021 16:20

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

I think we've gone back in time to the early 70s... or maybe the 1950s!

In the 80s loads of girls and women had short hair and worse jeans, and loads of boys and men had long hair and wore make-up and usually also jeans, and people generally didn't get mixed up!

What on earth has happened to people to make them believe that they can only tell make from female in adults (not prepubescent children where the differences in skeletal and muscle development and voice haven't kicked in) by hair length and clothing????

You can thank the TRA movement for this.
SarahAndQuack · 13/11/2021 16:24

I'm off on a tangent, but this question was just forming in my brain while I was answering all those posts I missed this morning:

There are quite a few posters who are telling me DP must be more butch/masculine looking than I think she is, or this wouldn't be happening. Do you have a belief about why I would want to believe DP isn't butch/masculine looking?

OP posts:
Megalameg · 13/11/2021 16:27

@TreXX

Well your friends were in a small niche of style then. The average man in the street and lad in school in the 80’s wasn’t wearing makeup and it wasn’t remotely socially acceptable for them to. I’m not making judgement on that I’m just saying talking about the 80’s like it was just normal for men to get round in a face full of makeup is fantasy.

TreXX · 13/11/2021 16:29

[quote Megalameg]@TreXX

Well your friends were in a small niche of style then. The average man in the street and lad in school in the 80’s wasn’t wearing makeup and it wasn’t remotely socially acceptable for them to. I’m not making judgement on that I’m just saying talking about the 80’s like it was just normal for men to get round in a face full of makeup is fantasy.[/quote]
Well we obviously lived in very different worlds then

Nothing remotely socially unacceptable in my 80s experience about boys wearing makeup. In fact some still wear eyeliner and/or nail varnish.

I can only assume you lived a very sheltered and very boring life

Megalameg · 13/11/2021 16:41

@SarahAndQuack

Are people saying that you want to believe your partner isn’t masculine looking for some reason - or just that other people see her differently than you?

Often we see our partners differently to others (and this applies to all people really). Why, just the other day one of my friends introduced me to her new boyfriend who she had described to me as “handsome” and a “mans man” - but when I looked at him all I saw was a typical potato headed guy who looked like he swilled lager while yelling at the footy on telly.

Megalameg · 13/11/2021 16:46

@TreXX

No actually - my life wasn’t sheltered that’s the point. You may have hung out with people who were in a minority of make up wearing men in the 80’s but for the vast majority of the general population of men then (and I guess now too) makeup wasn’t worn and it would definitely not have been encouraged or accepted if it had of been.

I’m not saying that’s right so don’t get mad at me for it - Im just stating the truth, the vast majority of men in the 80’s didn’t wear (or want to wear) make up nor was it socially acceptable for them to do so and they would have been judged pretty harshly for it.

UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme · 13/11/2021 16:47

Megalameg who said "a full face of make-up" - nobody woman know wears pancake makeup, or a "full" foundation layer covering their full face during the day. Lots of youngish men worse eye liner and other bits and pieces though.

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 13/11/2021 16:47

@SarahAndQuack

I'm off on a tangent, but this question was just forming in my brain while I was answering all those posts I missed this morning:

There are quite a few posters who are telling me DP must be more butch/masculine looking than I think she is, or this wouldn't be happening. Do you have a belief about why I would want to believe DP isn't butch/masculine looking?

It’s because of what you say in your first post:

She always wears jeans or trousers (but women's jeans or trousers), and usually a shirt or a hoodie. Sometimes the shirts are from the menswear section, but the hoodies are generally Seasalt women's. Her hair is short, but so is mine, and no one ever mistakes me for a man. She wears unisex doc martens, but so do lots of women

UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme · 13/11/2021 16:48

sorry that was meant to say "no woman I know" not nobody woman

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 13/11/2021 16:48

ie your description gives the impression of male dressing (or neutral at most)

MrsJamPanMan · 13/11/2021 16:51

@Megalameg
I’m with you.
“the vast majority of men in the 80’s didn’t wear (or want to wear) make up nor was it socially acceptable for them to do so and they would have been judged pretty harshly for it.”
Homophobia was much more overt in the eighties. I never knew any men who wore make up.

Megalameg · 13/11/2021 16:52

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

No they didn’t. Maybe lots of young men you knew wore eye liner but lots of young men as in a majority or a sizeable minority did not wear eye liner on the 80’s.
Why are you persisting with this fantasy?

SarahAndQuack · 13/11/2021 16:53

[quote Megalameg]@SarahAndQuack

Are people saying that you want to believe your partner isn’t masculine looking for some reason - or just that other people see her differently than you?

Often we see our partners differently to others (and this applies to all people really). Why, just the other day one of my friends introduced me to her new boyfriend who she had described to me as “handsome” and a “mans man” - but when I looked at him all I saw was a typical potato headed guy who looked like he swilled lager while yelling at the footy on telly.[/quote]
On this thread, several posters have said I must be mistaken and she must be masculine looking.

We absolutely do see our partners differently from others, I agree - but I was curious about the reasons those posters might have had for feeling that I was probably in denial about how masculine or butch DP might look.

I just have a hunch they may think that butch=unattractive, and in saying DP doesn't look butch, I am trying to protect her from some kind of stigma, or deny something unappealing about her.

OP posts:
BelleOfTheProvince · 13/11/2021 16:55

I don't really understand what you want here op. Realistically only a small percentage of people are gay so people are never going to assume that is the default.

Most people are straight and are obviously going to assume the same of others till told otherwise. Is it reasonable for people to assume that you or a lesbian couple, anymore than you might be a couple with a slightly more feminine male partner, or even a trans man. To be honest I doubt they have given it much headspace and as they are not close friends they probably instantly forget because it's not a big deal to them. (Surely you don't want it to be a huge deal. I'd consider it a good thing it's considered rather mundane and normal rather than a gossip point.
The person who missexed your oh was
probably mortified. Have you cleared up the assumption or have you just left them to form more (possibly incorrect assumptions)?

If I made that mistake I would feel awful and hope someone said something like.

Oh my partner is Jane, we've been going out since I met her at blah.

Or indeed. My partner is No and she identifies as non binary.

Obviously people are making the mistake because of the cues they are receiving. I used to have it happen to me as I have an athletic figure and when I used to work in retail we had to wear an awful shirt that made me look like a man.
I didn't like it, but instead of getting mad at the (usually toddler) making the mistake I changed my hairstyle and sucked it up.

It does sound like this may be effecting her self esteem, which is a shame, but the reality is you can't police others' perceptions.

TreXX · 13/11/2021 16:55

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

Megalameg who said "a full face of make-up" - nobody woman know wears pancake makeup, or a "full" foundation layer covering their full face during the day. Lots of youngish men worse eye liner and other bits and pieces though.
Exactly

Superdrug even sold manscara and guyliner at one point

It was positively mainstream

SarahAndQuack · 13/11/2021 16:55

@MyrtlethePurpleTurtle

ie your description gives the impression of male dressing (or neutral at most)
Oh, sorry, no, what I was asking was, do posters have a sense of why I might be saying she's not masculine? I mean, do people have a theory of why I'd want to do that?

Most of DP's clothes are from the womenswear section. She has a few t-shirts from H&M mens, and a couple of unisex hoodies. She does have more stereotypically butch stuff in her wardrobe, but she's not wearing formal jackets down the school gate, so it's not about those things.

OP posts:
UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme · 13/11/2021 16:56

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle I wear unisex Levi 501s at least four or five days per week - they suit me and I love the pockets... I have never been mistaken for a man in my life.

DD (16) often wears exactly the same sports gear as DS (14) - exactly the same unisex shorts, training tops, tracksuit bottoms and tops, sold through the sports club who's teams they both play for with the club name on it. I actually don't know whose are whose unless I look at the size labels, and leave it to them to retrieve their own sets from the airers after washing. Their boots are unisex too, just different sizes, and DD doesn't have tiny feet (size 7, though DS is a size 12 already..) DD never wears make up and often has her hair under her hat. Nobody has ever mistaken DD for a boy doing this since pre puberty.

SarahAndQuack · 13/11/2021 16:57

@BelleOfTheProvince

I don't really understand what you want here op. Realistically only a small percentage of people are gay so people are never going to assume that is the default.

Most people are straight and are obviously going to assume the same of others till told otherwise. Is it reasonable for people to assume that you or a lesbian couple, anymore than you might be a couple with a slightly more feminine male partner, or even a trans man. To be honest I doubt they have given it much headspace and as they are not close friends they probably instantly forget because it's not a big deal to them. (Surely you don't want it to be a huge deal. I'd consider it a good thing it's considered rather mundane and normal rather than a gossip point.
The person who missexed your oh was
probably mortified. Have you cleared up the assumption or have you just left them to form more (possibly incorrect assumptions)?

If I made that mistake I would feel awful and hope someone said something like.

Oh my partner is Jane, we've been going out since I met her at blah.

Or indeed. My partner is No and she identifies as non binary.

Obviously people are making the mistake because of the cues they are receiving. I used to have it happen to me as I have an athletic figure and when I used to work in retail we had to wear an awful shirt that made me look like a man.
I didn't like it, but instead of getting mad at the (usually toddler) making the mistake I changed my hairstyle and sucked it up.

It does sound like this may be effecting her self esteem, which is a shame, but the reality is you can't police others' perceptions.

Oh, actually, DP never has a problem with the sexuality aspect - people who identify her as female invariably assume she's a lesbian. It's me who has that issue!
OP posts:
TreXX · 13/11/2021 16:57

[quote Megalameg]@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

No they didn’t. Maybe lots of young men you knew wore eye liner but lots of young men as in a majority or a sizeable minority did not wear eye liner on the 80’s.
Why are you persisting with this fantasy?[/quote]
Who said a sizeable majority?

I'm just agreeing with pp that loads wore it and disagreeing with you that it was socially unacceptable. It wasn't in my group of friends, may have been in less enlightened areas