To be fed up with people misgendering DP (not trans)

[SarahAndQuack]

My partner is female, as am I, and we have a daughter who recently started school. DP has always had the odd person be confused about her gender, but when we got together there was a big surge in people assuming she was a man, and when DD was born, even more so. DD is nearly five now, and I still find people glance at DP and assume she's a man. I'm posting because one of the school mums - and DD goes to a tiny rural school so there are only a handful of us - has still not clocked that DP is a woman. I was at the school gate chatting and she asked about my husband, so I replied my partner's a woman, and she clearly didn't know what to say.

I find it frustrating because, if you actually bother to look at DP, you can see she's a woman. She always wears jeans or trousers (but women's jeans or trousers), and usually a shirt or a hoodie. Sometimes the shirts are from the menswear section, but the hoodies are generally Seasalt women's. Her hair is short, but so is mine, and no one ever mistakes me for a man. She wears unisex doc martens, but so do lots of women. She's all of 5'8 so not exactly a towering masculine height.

I am aware people misgender her mostly out of kneejerk, unconscious bias: they see one woman (me) and another person, and they automatically decide the other person must be a man. Or they see me and DD and decide the other person must be the dad.

But it's really starting to bother me, because DD is getting old enough to start wondering about what people say, and she is trying to understand what makes someone a man or a woman. She is getting a clear message that her mum is doing womanhood 'wrong', and that people don't think she is a woman, and she's started asking us why. I don't know what to say - and I don't know how to respond to people misgendering DP in a way that is still friendly, but does get across that it's not ok?

*majority or sizeable minority that should have said

I think people just make very quick snap judgments.
DS currently has shoulder length thick wavy hair.
He gets called a girl all the time.
He is a male teen and doesn't look feminine.
People just don't pay much attention.

Megalameg lots doesn't mean the same as the vast majority... I'm not sure what your agenda is but you're going down the hyperbolic line clearly - I am not persisting with a fantasy, I am saying lots of young men worse eye liner and other bits and pieces of make-up and nobody thought they were women. Lots of women and girls had short hair and nobody thought they were men. Lots of people had other haircuts etc etc etc obviously!

As a 6th former then student in the late 80s/ early 90s this was my experience. There were men who wore skirts occasionally not because they were trans but because why not? Usually a band t-shirt and a sarong. The youngish men I knew who did that were all straight students, and yes there were men in the media doing the same obviously - it wasn't linked to sexual orientation AFAIK.

Your experience, if that's what you're speaking from, may well be different (different areas of the same country can be very different indeed) but you surely aren't small minded enough not to understand that your experience wasn't the only experience...

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

Megalameg lots doesn't mean the same as the vast majority... I'm not sure what your agenda is but you're going down the hyperbolic line clearly - I am not persisting with a fantasy, I am saying lots of young men worse eye liner and other bits and pieces of make-up and nobody thought they were women. Lots of women and girls had short hair and nobody thought they were men. Lots of people had other haircuts etc etc etc obviously!

As a 6th former then student in the late 80s/ early 90s this was my experience. There were men who wore skirts occasionally not because they were trans but because why not? Usually a band t-shirt and a sarong. The youngish men I knew who did that were all straight students, and yes there were men in the media doing the same obviously - it wasn't linked to sexual orientation AFAIK.

Your experience, if that's what you're speaking from, may well be different (different areas of the same country can be very different indeed) but you surely aren't small minded enough not to understand that your experience wasn't the only experience...

yes, Adam Ant and Boy George were around and loads of young men I knew wore ridiculous outifts and make up.

My brother pinched my mums eye liner and one of his friends left black mascara all over the sheets in our spare room

They are all straight.

No, I don't think it's in the least malicious. And yes, it's definitely like the surname thing - the issue, though, is DD being bothered about it. She went through a stage of insisting one of us was 'the dad' and this really doesn't help.

In terms of dd, I do think this is something a lot of kids go through, trying to fit their own family into the stereotypical mould, and of course, most actually fail, as so few families are mum, dad and 2.4 children these days.

How you handle it will make all the difference. Talking about different families altogether, maybe finding some books. I wouldn't focus specifically on the fact she has 2 mums, but rather that families come in all shapes and sizes.
x lives with her mum and spends weekends with dad
y has 2 mums
z lives with Granny and Grandad

and so on. Gorund it in relaity, in the kids/families she knows. And at the same time talk about books and how many of them are lazy because they don't show actual real people.
You can extend this to anything you like in terms of diversity, and make it a bit of a challenge, when reading books, give them a star rating if they show real people.

Op I do think it depends what people have been exposed to. I have no gay friends, don't know any gay couples, growing up had no exposure to anything except heterosexual relationships.

I try to challenge my own intrinsic prejudice/default thinking by teaching my dc that families can be more than just a heterosexual couple. Talking about being gay as well a hetero when discussing facts of life when they were older. Basically trying to teach them about relationships go beyond a hetero couple - keeping their minds open

@Dropcloth

Oh, and on unconscious bias — for some people, height overrides all other info, weirdly. DH is short, and despite being very male looking, including having a beard, and I can think of several times he was with me and/or women friends going into a pub or club past a bouncer, and we’ve been told ‘Have a good night, ladies.’

The fact that your partner is five ft eight May account for a surprising amount of the mis-sexing.

This is my experience, having spent several years with very short hair (short back and sides or an undercut, not a 'feminine' style). I was mistaken for a man a good few times in that period and many of those people, when they realised, would then mention something about my height - "I'm so sorry, how embarassing, you are tall for a woman," sort of thing. I am only 5ft 8" but something about the combination of hair + height was enough to tip the balance into being read as male at first glance. It's possible they were just grasping for a polite straw to use as an excuse for getting it wrong.

I just have a hunch they may think that butch=unattractive, and in saying DP doesn't look butch, I am trying to protect her from some kind of stigma, or deny something unappealing about her.
I think you’ve nailed it here. People like their lesbians in an attractive “lipstick lesbian” package – particularly women who say “Eurgh, men, wish I were a lesbian so I didn’t have to go out with men” but mean “I can imagine being attracted to a conventionally attractive, normative, presents as feminine woman” (though probably aren’t picturing the sex so much as the “not living with their gross male DP”), and subconsciously or not can’t fathom what would be attractive about butch.

So when in this thread you’ve said she wears men’s shirts, has short hair, gets mistaken for a man, soft butch, etc, that doesn’t fit the level of lesbian they’re prepared to accept, so they’re adding in “yeah RIGHT she wears flowery hoodies, you’re in denial”, of course you don’t want to admit she’s ugly, because you love her. Please not I am not saying she’s ugly!

What I mean is people often have 2 versions of lesbian they can picture: highly feminine, what my friend calls “Surprise! Lesbians” (because she constantly has to out herself to people as they assume she’s too sparkly/pink to be a lesbian, and are wilded out when they learn), and Of Course She’s a Lesbian – butch and masculine, often overweight. No concept that aesthetically y’all might be on a wide spectrum, like everyone else. We (the straights) love to put people in tidy boxes and move on.

And it’s easier in this thread to make leaps that you’re doing something (protecting, denying) than it is to expand those 2 boxes and learn that lesbians walk among us, looking like everyone else – you’re not all safely segregated in Brighton and Hebden Bridge, in your neatly identifiable boxes.

I don't really understand the problem. If it bothers her, she can make an effort to look more traditionally feminine. If it doesn't bother her, then she should carry on doing what she's doing. It's not really other people's fault if she chooses to look more masculine

Fact is, cues will add up so people make a d+short assumption.

So curvy+neutral clothes+long hair+short=read as woman

Athletic+neutral clothes+ short hair+talk read as man.

If you want to be 'read' differently, you have to change a variable you can change as you can't change height etc.

So in my case I have long hair+ less neutral clothes to balance out a figure that could be read as 'boy' or wanting to pass for boy.

As a pp said, if you want to challenge stereotypes, be prepared for people not paying attention to get it wrong.

It's a bit like dressing outlandishly and then shouting at others who state.

It sounds like in your oh case lots of the cues are masculine. So either people are getting it wrong because they aren't paying attention, or they think they are getting it right because oh is giving off male identity signals.

@XelaM

I don't really understand the problem. If it bothers her, she can make an effort to look more traditionally feminine. If it doesn't bother her, then she should carry on doing what she's doing. It's not really other people's fault if she chooses to look more masculine

Why should she, though? The clothing choices she makes are not especially masculine ones (though, I admit, after this thread she rolled her eyes and went to buy a couple of jumpers from Sainsbury's menswear, because fuck it).

The issue isn't that she's making a huge effort to look masculine, and then throwing her toys out of the pram when people think she's a man. I do get that would be a bit weird.

And honestly, how much more 'traditionally feminine' can you look than pregnant or breastfeeding? If someone doesn't clock you as a woman when you literally have your boob exposed, then I think you have to accept there's something else going on.

@BelleOfTheProvince

Fact is, cues will add up so people make a d+short assumption.

So curvy+neutral clothes+long hair+short=read as woman

Athletic+neutral clothes+ short hair+talk read as man.

If you want to be 'read' differently, you have to change a variable you can change as you can't change height etc.

So in my case I have long hair+ less neutral clothes to balance out a figure that could be read as 'boy' or wanting to pass for boy.

As a pp said, if you want to challenge stereotypes, be prepared for people not paying attention to get it wrong.

It's a bit like dressing outlandishly and then shouting at others who state.

It sounds like in your oh case lots of the cues are masculine. So either people are getting it wrong because they aren't paying attention, or they think they are getting it right because oh is giving off male identity signals.

What is a ‘male identity signal’? What ‘male identity signals’ can a woman give out while breastfeeding or giving birth?

Marks do very nice reasonably priced mens jumpers

I have one and dd wears her dads…but shes ok as she has long hair and is short, i think thats pretty much whats being said by some posters

@hotmeatymilk

I just have a hunch they may think that butch=unattractive, and in saying DP doesn't look butch, I am trying to protect her from some kind of stigma, or deny something unappealing about her. I think you’ve nailed it here. People like their lesbians in an attractive “lipstick lesbian” package – particularly women who say “Eurgh, men, wish I were a lesbian so I didn’t have to go out with men” but mean “I can imagine being attracted to a conventionally attractive, normative, presents as feminine woman” (though probably aren’t picturing the sex so much as the “not living with their gross male DP”), and subconsciously or not can’t fathom what would be attractive about butch.

So when in this thread you’ve said she wears men’s shirts, has short hair, gets mistaken for a man, soft butch, etc, that doesn’t fit the level of lesbian they’re prepared to accept, so they’re adding in “yeah RIGHT she wears flowery hoodies, you’re in denial”, of course you don’t want to admit she’s ugly, because you love her. Please not I am not saying she’s ugly!

What I mean is people often have 2 versions of lesbian they can picture: highly feminine, what my friend calls “Surprise! Lesbians” (because she constantly has to out herself to people as they assume she’s too sparkly/pink to be a lesbian, and are wilded out when they learn), and Of Course She’s a Lesbian – butch and masculine, often overweight. No concept that aesthetically y’all might be on a wide spectrum, like everyone else. We (the straights) love to put people in tidy boxes and move on.

And it’s easier in this thread to make leaps that you’re doing something (protecting, denying) than it is to expand those 2 boxes and learn that lesbians walk among us, looking like everyone else – you’re not all safely segregated in Brighton and Hebden Bridge, in your neatly identifiable boxes.

I definitely agree a lot of people mentally categorise lesbians in those two groups. It's weird, as well, because I think a lot of people have the assumption that if a woman is really stereotypically attractive (to men), she must be gorgeous to women as well. Whereas in reality, of course, not all men fancy the women who top the 'world's sexist woman' lists, let alone women.

I'm definitely a 'surprise lesbian' (I love that term! ). I think it's not just how I look but also having been married to a man for a while, so all those mannerisms and so on are straight.

And now I have to clarify (though I understood your post and that you weren't saying she was ugly!) that DP is not overweight and has a beautiful figure.

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

Marks do very nice reasonably priced mens jumpers

I have one and dd wears her dads…but shes ok as she has long hair and is short, i think thats pretty much whats being said by some posters

They do, don't they - I used to buy my dad them on occasion.

It's interesting, isn't it - there's a certain genre of 'women wearing men's clothing' that is seen as extremely feminine. Like your DD borrowing her dad's jumper, or Carrie wearing Big's shirt home one day (SATC is on my mind because of the new series!).

It's interesting, isn't it - there's a certain genre of 'women wearing men's clothing' that is seen as extremely feminine

Yeah…the short ones with long hair

Cut your hair short and you need to start wearing dresses ALL the time so people don’t think youre a man 😩

I like the optimism of ‘borrowing her dads jumper’

He is never seeing that thing again…

I really think in the nicest way possible, you are expecting people to have a problem when they don't.

From what I can gather, is a few school gate mums see you with your partner and so should somehow automatically know that
A) she's your partner
B) she's a butch lesbian as opposed to a trans man

Why would you assume anyone even knows she's your partner? These people literally don't know you from Adam. Grand, aunts, friends all do school pick up. Why would people assume partner over any of these things?

And if the issue is that you have talked about partner or mentioned it, you are relying on random parents to the remember specific details about your relationship. It's a bit of an assumption to assume they remember anything other than you are x child's mum(and even that is not guaranteed).

I mean, do you know who all the adults picking up all your child's class by name? Their relationship to said child? Do you know who is a step parent, who lives with Grandma and who gets picked up by a child minder.

The only details these people are going to remember are obvious ones. And yes, if your partner presents in a masculine way, with short hair and is relatively tall, people may read them as male. People are far too busy with their own stuff to pay more than a cursory glance and a polite word to you.

As I said previously short hair+tall+neutral clothes will be read as male. That's just the way of the world. It's great your partner doesn't adhere to stereotypes but people who actively push against stereotypes need to get used to the fact that people won't always get it right. It's just not high on people's agenda of shit they need to think about and it's not others' responsibility to tip toe around your self image.

OP, why are you a member of a church that doesn't accept who you are? Seems insane to me.

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer, ok, yes, 'borrowing' is a polite fiction, isn't it?!

sarah 😀

apparently its cool to wear your dads stuff but not your mums 😳

What is a ‘male identity signal’? What ‘male identity signals’ can a woman give out while breastfeeding or giving birth?

I believe this is why the word chestfeeding is erasing breastfeeding.

I assume that in the incident mentioned that the waitress didn't see the baby.

Or, assumed trans identity because that's very much what is pushed at the moment.

I'm sure oh has a lovely figure. As someone who had an athletic figure before baby turned it into Michelin man, I can tell you that certain clothes on those of us who are thin, over 5'7 and not curvy do make us look more androgynous.
As I said previously, I was misgendered a lot as a teen. Neutral clothes+ pony tail+ athletic figure and people read male.

I didn't like it so I wore more fitted clothing. Others might choose to wear more neutral shapes but accept that people might get it wrong.

People are not mindreaders. They don't know if you dress like that as a identity thing, as a comfort thing, or any other motivation. But mainly these people are focused on their own kids, their own lives. I doubt they give it any thought.

@BelleOfTheProvince

I really think in the nicest way possible, you are expecting people to have a problem when they don't.

From what I can gather, is a few school gate mums see you with your partner and so should somehow automatically know that
A) she's your partner
B) she's a butch lesbian as opposed to a trans man

Why would you assume anyone even knows she's your partner? These people literally don't know you from Adam. Grand, aunts, friends all do school pick up. Why would people assume partner over any of these things?

And if the issue is that you have talked about partner or mentioned it, you are relying on random parents to the remember specific details about your relationship. It's a bit of an assumption to assume they remember anything other than you are x child's mum(and even that is not guaranteed).

I mean, do you know who all the adults picking up all your child's class by name? Their relationship to said child? Do you know who is a step parent, who lives with Grandma and who gets picked up by a child minder.

The only details these people are going to remember are obvious ones. And yes, if your partner presents in a masculine way, with short hair and is relatively tall, people may read them as male. People are far too busy with their own stuff to pay more than a cursory glance and a polite word to you.

As I said previously short hair+tall+neutral clothes will be read as male. That's just the way of the world. It's great your partner doesn't adhere to stereotypes but people who actively push against stereotypes need to get used to the fact that people won't always get it right. It's just not high on people's agenda of shit they need to think about and it's not others' responsibility to tip toe around your self image.

I certainly know all the adults picking up children in my child's year by name. I'm not sure I'd know all of those in her class, because some children do after-school club and so I never meet their parents - but, of course, those parents aren't the ones I'm interacting with so it's not an issue. It's quite a small school - it's not a huge number of names.

I'm quite sure they know she's my partner - there's never any confusion about that.

I don't think her clothes are neutral really. If you saw a man wearing a flowery top from Seasalt, you would not think it neutral.

Neutral clothes+ pony tail+ athletic figure and people read male

A minute ago it was short hair…now its a ponytail

So is it just height?

I could see DH pulling off this:
www.seasaltcornwall.com/gypsophilia-top-organic-cotton-jersey?glCountry=GB&glCurrency=GBP&color=28361&lgw_code=11383-212610B014&utm_id=go_cmp-15176139075_adg-130187435420_ad-559312118287_pla-576433220781_dev-m_ext-_prd-212610B014_mca-11215303_sig-Cj0KCQiA4b2MBhD2ARIsAIrcB-SrWcA2Xm_zlwQvFeOrnKYY1ybEhquQUaiQW0HXmYahn0lgyoV3OFgaAlnpEALw_wcB&utm_source=google&gclid=Cj0KCQiA4b2MBhD2ARIsAIrcB-SrWcA2Xm_zlwQvFeOrnKYY1ybEhquQUaiQW0HXmYahn0lgyoV3OFgaAlnpEALw_wcB

But he has ridiculously masculine features and stubble.