To be fed up with people misgendering DP (not trans)

[SarahAndQuack]

My partner is female, as am I, and we have a daughter who recently started school. DP has always had the odd person be confused about her gender, but when we got together there was a big surge in people assuming she was a man, and when DD was born, even more so. DD is nearly five now, and I still find people glance at DP and assume she's a man. I'm posting because one of the school mums - and DD goes to a tiny rural school so there are only a handful of us - has still not clocked that DP is a woman. I was at the school gate chatting and she asked about my husband, so I replied my partner's a woman, and she clearly didn't know what to say.

I find it frustrating because, if you actually bother to look at DP, you can see she's a woman. She always wears jeans or trousers (but women's jeans or trousers), and usually a shirt or a hoodie. Sometimes the shirts are from the menswear section, but the hoodies are generally Seasalt women's. Her hair is short, but so is mine, and no one ever mistakes me for a man. She wears unisex doc martens, but so do lots of women. She's all of 5'8 so not exactly a towering masculine height.

I am aware people misgender her mostly out of kneejerk, unconscious bias: they see one woman (me) and another person, and they automatically decide the other person must be a man. Or they see me and DD and decide the other person must be the dad.

But it's really starting to bother me, because DD is getting old enough to start wondering about what people say, and she is trying to understand what makes someone a man or a woman. She is getting a clear message that her mum is doing womanhood 'wrong', and that people don't think she is a woman, and she's started asking us why. I don't know what to say - and I don't know how to respond to people misgendering DP in a way that is still friendly, but does get across that it's not ok?

@DysmalRadius

What is your daughter actually upset about? I have two boys who are both consistently mistaken for girls (and have been their whole lives) and they have never cared. They understand that people often have to guess whether someone is male or female and sometimes they get it wrong, often more than once. It's a relatively minor and inoffensive mistake in most cases, so why do you think your daughter is struggling so much?

I'm not entirely sure, which is partly what I was hoping to get out of this thread! I'm not sure how much is just the very normal developmental thing of comparing her family to the 'norm' (which several posters have pointed out is a very common thing. And I'm not sure how much is feeling a slightly, for want of a better word, social anxiety in that she isn't quite sure how to explain to her peers?

When she was tiny and going to nursery, she'd really cheerfully yell 'two mums, I got two mums' and the other children would occasionally come up at home time and ask us 'does [DD] have two mums?' and we'd say yes. Nursery were pretty hands-on about making sure they talked about different families.

I think we've gone back in time to the early 70s... or maybe the 1950s!

In the 80s loads of girls and women had short hair and worse jeans, and loads of boys and men had long hair and wore make-up and usually also jeans, and people generally didn't get mixed up!

What on earth has happened to people to make them believe that they can only tell make from female in adults (not prepubescent children where the differences in skeletal and muscle development and voice haven't kicked in) by hair length and clothing????

@drhf

Hi OP, this got quite spirited even for AIBU, didn't it?!

I'm in a similar situation. DW gets misgendered and occasionally missexed (two different things):

1. misgendered by woke acquaintances who assume she is trans. On one occasion she was speaking at an event on LGBT history and was persistently "they-ed" even after correcting this person several times that she uses "she". That is quite annoying - but not applicable here.
2. genuinely missexed by children and occasionally by idiots, usually male (women seem to be better at identifying sex). Here she gives a firm "I'm a woman".
3. accidentally missexed by people looking too quickly and not processing what they see correctly. This she tends to ignore unless it persists past a quick look and becomes 2).

People do not misgender/missex DW to me in her absence, but that's probably because I constantly refer to her as "my wife". I have to agree with PP who say this helps, and that you don't need to actually be married to say it. (If you really do want to be married, and can afford it, have you considered the Episcopal churches in North America? That way you could have a religious wedding in the Anglican tradition, with the sacrament.)

I did ask DW (who is not on MN) her opinion and she says "OP should tell her daughter that some people are just a bit stupid and not worry about what they say, but that DD should keep that thought to herself - and that there's no right way to be a woman, or a man".

As lesbians, we can't protect our children entirely from other people's silly judgements about sex and gender. All we can do I think is trust in our own parenting, and feel glad that our children learn early in life that it's important to think for yourself and not go along with other people when they are being obviously foolish.

This is such a useful reply, thank you so much!

YY, I'm not sure if I should have used missexed or misgendered and TBH I didn't think about it much. A few people asked before if I think the school parents think DP might be trans - I don't think so, I could be wrong? But maybe some do.

Thank your DW for me too, please!

@Dropcloth - aw, your poor DS worrying! But that's reassuring to know that stage was over fairly quickly. Thanks for the advice!

It's not misgendering if it's a mistake is it?

FWIW also people are quite stupid: my friends just had a baby and it was the “soft butch” (also not a fan of the term) partner who gave birth. Someone genuinely said to them “Oh, I thought it would be [other partner] tbh, she’s the girl. Good for you for doing it.”

@hotmeatymilk - OMG, yes, we got this! Even from one lesbian couple who're friends of DPs (though because they're lesbians we did get to just say 'really?!' and we laughed about it). The midwife asked us during appointments, it was a thing. I still occasionally get people asking why I didn't.

@foodanfagsjokiing

TBH .I am female and where Jean's, Trainers, TShirt .I have short hair but have never been mistaken as Male. Can only presume that your partner looks more butch than you realise. This is not a criticism but she needs to make more of an effort with her appearance if it bothers you both so much. This is genuine,common sense advice.

She makes a lot of effort with her appearance - I really like the way she looks. This isn't at all about her looking a mess or anything like that. She's much more groomed than me on an average day.

[quote BakeOffRewatch]@SarahAndQuack Letterbox Library curate and sell books that are diverse, like disability, religion and so on. They have a theme on LGBT. £5 to see them, but taken off order, I think people used them to find books but not buy. They’re really nice too, so if you contacted them and described what you’re looking for, such as what kind of discussion you want to have, I’m sure they can help. They might know one that’s out of print. www.letterboxlibrary.com/acatalog/Book_Themes.html

I don’t think there’s anything you can do to stop this happening repeatedly, but I don’t think that’s what you asked either. For talking to your daughter, I would discuss it in the context of religion and dealing with life through acceptance and others with humility, and that regardless we all shine in god’s love (sorry short summary, I don’t know your congregation’s specific teachings). A conversation with your vicar may help too, after all that’s what they’re there for, guidance. They’ll have some wisdom on having an age appropriate discussion. It’s awesome you have such a lovely vicar.[/quote]
Ooh, thank you! That looks useful.

My vicar, bless him ... I am not sure what he'd think about being asked to talk to her (or us) about it. He's a lovely man, though.

It's interesting - we moved to our village a few years ago, and initially a few people in church either assumed DP was a man or were a bit off with us, but most people came round and it's very much DD's community now - she loves it and knows everyone well. But it's a classic country C of E church so most of the congregation is elderly, the generation above the school mums and dads. So there's this weird split where half the village know exactly who we are and who our daughter is, and the other half are still all confused! Maybe that's what's jarring for me.

@RampantIvy

Yes, but we're C of E, so we'd like to get married in Church

But if you really wanted to be married then you would have a civil ceremony. Sorry, but this just sounds like an excuse not to get married.

You can't have the wedding you want (in a C of E church) but you could have the marriage you want. Wouldn't that be better?

I agree with @Tailendofsummer.

I think it’s most likely a case of seeing what you expect to see

I agree with this. It happens in all areas of life.

No - this is a religious issue. A wedding is a transitory celebration; you could have that anywhere. But a marriage is based (for me) on religion. A civil service would not be a marriage.

Marriage is a legal transaction though, so while you might not think of a civil ceremony as a marriage, in law it is. Is it possible to have a civil ceremny followed by a church blessing?

You need to think carefully about the legal implications of not being married unless you both have watertight wills in place. This topic often comes up on mumsnet.

Sorry, I think I introduced confusion by trying rather incoherently to make a distinction between a wedding and a marriage.

I'd say wedding is the ceremony. A marriage is the legal or religious institution. If we had a civil ceremony, we'd be legally married, but not religiously married. We could certainly ask for a blessing, but I really would rather wait.

I've been on MN donkeys' years so am very familiar with the debate about marriage (and yes, we do have pretty tight legal stuff).

@katy1111

Hi OP, in one of your earlier posts you were asking for book recommendations for children of lesbian parents. I wonder if any of the books mentioned in this link might appeal www.parents.com/parenting/dynamics/gay-parents/seven-great-childrens-books-with-same-sex-parents/

Another potential good one might be Zak's Safari - but google it first as it goes more into conception so may or may not be what you're looking for right now.

Really sorry the ignorance of the parents at your daughter's school is starting to affect her.

Brilliant, thanks! Will look!

I really think we're talking at cross purposes @Megalameg

I'm not 'in a bubble' or particularly interested in trans people, nor do I think anyone else should be. I do think you'd have to have been living under a rock, not to be aware that they exist, or to have heard some 'I identify as a...' jokes.

What I'm saying is that that cultural shift has taken place around us, whether or not we had any part or interest in that. I do think it would be quite common now, for someone seeing a slightly butch lesbian, to have the fleeting thought 'maybe transman?'

Whereas, in the 80s and 90s, in the most simplistic and stereotypical way at least, I knew that someone who presented themselves a certain way was probably a lesbian. There was a recognisable style and sub-culture. There will have been lots of lesbians who didn't go in for those looks but those who did were recognisable.

So I do think it's possible that some people are trying to be polite and guessing, just jumping the wrong way.

@JumparooSavedMyLife

People are probably just assuming you have a husband as you've sent your child to a church school so are more likely to be married (to a man) rather than mistaking your gf for a man. Lots of people collect children from school, grandparents, childminders, aunty's, family friends etc. I never assume whoever is collecting a child is the parent as most parents work. If I saw 2 women alternating collecting the same child I wouldn't clock and think oh look they must be a couple, I just wouldn't think.

I don't remember mentioning it was a church school! Maybe I did. It is, but it's also the only local school, so it is the default for the village and I think, as it happens, we are actually one of the only families that is religious at all.

It's also an area where a lot of mums don't work, or work part time, though of course you're right plenty of different people collect children.

Oh and back to my original observation, the term 'misgendering' comes form trans culture. I could well be wrong but don't think OP would have used that term 10+ years ago. Maybe 'they keep mistaking her for a man' or something.

@Etinoxaurus

I don’t know why it’s happening and I’m sorry it’s bothering you. I actually came along to 😂 ✋ at “I am far too Anglican to talk earnestly about God, but it really does feel important to me.”

Thank you!

I don’t really have any advice but I’m gobsmacked at so many posts trying to justify what to me is a really weird situation.

I’ve seen thousands of women together with a child and not known their personal relationship but can immediately identify them both as female. Maybe twice has there been someone genuinely so ambiguous I couldn’t tell - but how women’s bodies are, once walking you can tell because of the hips. Is it really so unusual in most peoples lives to see two women together?!

I find it truly odd that she’s so constantly being read as male and not just as your ‘friend’ who is not your DD’s mother (which I suspect would be equally if not more upsetting). It doesn’t sound like it’s the wokerati doing it because maybe she’s a transman. It sounds like pure idiots tbh.

Just to be completely transparent, I’m not a lesbian so take my post with the pinch of salt it deserves, but seriously - two women and a child is not unusual even if the assumption is you’re friends or sisters or something.

[quote Walkaround]@SarahAndQuack - I’m sorry this keeps happening to you. You could take it as a good sign that the school mums aren’t horribly gossipy, if they are being this slow on the uptake?

Tbf, there are some women that you have to look at quite carefully if you want to be certain they are women and not feminine-looking men, and I really don’t think you should expect people to look at someone’s trousers and be able to identify them as men or women from that - my brother used to complain they didn’t sell men’s trousers for skinny men with big hips like him, and some of my female friends used to wear men’s jeans because they were skinny women with small hips, so body shapes are quite variable and, if not interested in fashion, clothes are just clothes. I’ve also looked up the Seasalt clothing you refer to and it doesn’t shout “feminine” to me, tbh, and isn’t exactly cut to accentuate the female body shape in obvious ways. Basically, people will always see what they are expecting to see first off, especially in a small village where that is normally what they are seeing.

I don’t see why non-malicious mistakes have to be particularly upsetting for your dd, though? It highlights the biological fact that you can’t both be her biological mother and that a man must have been involved in some way in your dd’s creation, but it doesn’t imply you can’t have a happy, loving family with two mummies bringing you up.[/quote]
That's certainly true, they must be not very gossipy! Which, you're right, is nice.

I don't think DD is upset about the biology aspect at all - I think she's too young to have really understood the implications of that. She knows she grew in DP's tummy (and she knows she came out through a big cut in mummy's tummy, ouch!), and she knows she has a 'sperm daddy' or 'a man who sent us some help'. But I don't think she's clocked that there's a general social perception that biology is what creates familial ties yet, if that makes sense?

@andweallsingalong

As you mentioned it bothering your DD I wonder if it's worth talking to the class teacher. If they were happy to have a discussion with the kids about different family types then the kids would speak up and say no, that's not x's dad, she has 2 mums. Get the message out more quickly and forcefully.

Whilst not something your partner should have to go through in a way I think it's a positive that it's taking a while to get the message out. In high school, many years ago, a friend had 2 mums, in primary he was open, it became the gossip of the school and he was bullied but didn't tell his mums as he didn't want to upset them. At high school he kept it to him self.

Now its so accepted no one's talking about it, as it should always have been.

That's a good idea. I've been not wanting to bother them, but I might have a really quiet word.

@Themirrorcracked

Op- we are also a lesbian couple with a child, and we are a butch/femme couple (my wife only wears mens clothes and has a shaved head, and is big).

Something that jumps out at me as a positive spin on your situation at school is that if no one is noticing you as a lesbian couple then they probably don’t think it’s a big issue, ie they just see other school parents and treat you as ‘normal’ in their heads.

When our child started school my wife had barely anything to do with the place because she was always at work, she maybe did one school run a year. Still everyone knew we were the gay parents because as soon as one or two noticed it was the hot topic of gossip. Which is annoying in its own way.

People do just code everyone around them into groups all the time. When our baby was born (I gave birth) they had colouring much more like my wife and people who saw us together presumed she was mum and I was her friend.

I think all you can do is keep having light hearted conversations with your daughter about it and she will learn that other people make snap judgements about people but that it doesn’t actually matter.

I'm sorry you had that experience - I can totally see that must be very annoying! Thanks for the sympathy and advice.

@AnneLovesGilbert

Really interesting thread OP, sorry about the upset this is causing your partner and you on her behalf.

Two thoughts occur to me.

I have a two year old and we live in a tiny not very diverse village. We were out the other day and I saw one of the mums of what I think is the only lesbian couple who live here who I don’t know but say a passing hi to going past with the kids from nursery. She’s tall, broad, has very short hair and was in jeans, boots and a hoody and DD said very loudly as we passed “that’s a nice lady mummy”. Completely unprompted, we were talking about what to have for dinner. DD knew she was a woman and she is. Lucky for us she’s not identifying as anything else. A toddler knows a butch looking lesbian is a woman, she knows an old woman with short hair we say hi to is a woman, she knows man bun guy across the road with very long beautiful hair is a man.

I don’t know why but she does. And it’ll be awkward as fuck if that means she’ll end up misgendering a trans identifying person but it’s thankfully not yet a crime.

Adults might know but they’re all currently being told to distrust their instinct. I’m on a breastfeeding forum where we’ve recently been collectively berated for assuming a mum who’s breastfeeding is a mum who’s breastfeeding. “We DO NOT make assumptions about how our members identify or that they are breastfeeding. Many of our members don’t identify as female, or mums, and are chestfeeding. Talk of breastfeeding can be very triggering”.

That's lovely what your DD said. Aww!

[quote RosesAndHellebores]Dear@SarahAndQuack, I haven't read the whole thread; just the first page and all of your replies. I can attest to you looking very feminine and beautiful we have met.

As far as the school community is concerned I think they are just fallible and thinking about 101 things and subconsciously letting their unconscious bias prevail. More than 20 years ago a boy in ds's class had two mums and whilst their were a few raised eyebrows in reception (wrong but 20 years ago.......) by the time the children were in Yr 1 they were Jane and Helen and just mums like the rest of us. As you say your dd is only 5 so it's early days and I think for now you just have to be yourselves. However, you do for this little while whist dd is feeling sensitive to put her at the centre and whilst it may irk may I gently suggest that your wife for a a few weeks perhaps adds a pink scarf or some other feminine accoutrement - I appreciate it goes against the grain but to bring on board a commu ity where dd is new, it might be worth thinking about at least.

Also re the CofE and marriage, I have friends who are both gay and Anglican priests/vicars/rectors - however they are styled. I would not attend an Anglican church where the vicar did not think the church's stance was wrong. With the right vicar I honestly believe that a blessing would signify you were married before God and that is what is important. The certificate can be produced anywhere and confers the legal rights rather than God's love and approval. The God I worship supports all marriages - it's belief that matters not the misaligned narrow mindedness that voted against women bishops not so many years ago. What happened to Geoffery John (sp) was a travesty but it wouldn't happen now and the church is inching its way forward. You could wait until it gets there officially but the disciples didn't do that, they forged ahead on the basis of knowing what was right and Christian to spread the word.

Go well - I am quite sure the misperceptions are but a bump along the road.[/quote]
Hello! Yes, indeed, I remember our meeting and it was lovely. And thank you!

DP does wear quite girly scarves as it happens! She knits so makes them herself, but they're about the only item of clothing we share on a regular basis, so they're just like mine.

I agree about church. It's something I'm always careful about when I go to a new church, finding out what the vicar's personal sympathies are. I still think, though, we'll wait ...

@Tailendofsummer

There are also "feminine" ways of moving, walking and sitting that women are socialised into. The shoes help with that, forcing our bodies into less comfortable ways of walking (not just high heels, all the little flat shoes that don't stay on your feet well if you take a big stride). In the series you mentioned Suranne Jones (is that right?) dressed differently but her whole movements were more stereotypically masculine. Body language may also give us a snap impression of someone being male when they are actually female.

I think this is very true, yes. (And YY, Suranne Jones was fab at that! I found it really clever, as I've seen her in other things and it's clearly not just her natural way of moving. But I digress.)

@stingofthebutterfly

I think you're expecting too much, too soon. My daughter has just started reception and I haven't even spoken to the other parents, let alone know their names or whether their partner is male, female or whatever.

It's not unreasonable for people to assume your partner is male, and if she isn't obviously female on a first, sideways glance, then you can't expect people to immediately know you're in a same sex relationship.

As others have said, just politely correct people and eventually everyone will get it right. These things take time.

Oh, we've met all the other parents in her year - school did settling-in afternoons outside last summer, and there have been a few children's parties.

@HippyMoon

Oh this would do my box in. DP and I are lesbians and whilst we're both quite butch, DP does get this a fair bit. I'm expecting it a lot more when we have kids. I don't blame you for being annoyed OP!

Good luck for when you do!

@AveryGoodlay

Food is brought to the patients beds so how did they miss your DP as I assume she was lying on the bed heavily pregnant and in labour. Every hospital is different. In mine women were expected to walk to get their own food at breakfast time even post major abdominal surgery. I have given birth in hospital 3 times, is tea and toast no longer standard after giving birth? It's the first thing tbe nurses offered me after I gave birth. Best toast EVER. I've never heard of this! No, food wasn't always brought to patients' beds in that hospital. And she didn't have tea and toast after - she'd just had a c section and she wasn't meant to eat immediately. Then they'd bring some meals on trays, but breakfast generally you were meant to go get. OP if you and your partner decide to have another baby, take food and drink. I did due to having Coeliac disease and knowing from experience most of the staff dealing with this had no idea what it was or what was suitable for me. I also packed painkillers for my second which was a lesson I'd learned from my first! Luckily the second time my midwife was pregnant which I felt made a difference to the care I received. I didn't even expect food and water, just painkillers.

Also, very strange they assumed you were the one in labour. Tbh I'd put that down to either prejudice or mind-numbing stupidity.

OMG, yes, if we have another we will be much more prepared! But I think everyone says that. DP was in for days and we lived off M&S from the little shop in the hospital foyer, I didn't want to see another bean salad ever again.

I don't think it's stupidity, it's just those very quick knee-jerk assumptions. But without wanting to blame anyone or think it's malicious, cumulatively it wears you down.

@SeenYourArse

I never understand this genuinely 🤯 dresses alike and purposely emulates a man in appearance and takes on the traditional role of a man then gets upset when people either mistake them for or think they want to be referred to as a man! This is getting way too difficult to navigate

Who are you talking about?

DP and I don't dress alike. DP doesn't dress like a man or take on 'the traditional role of a man' (whatever that might be).