To be fed up with people misgendering DP (not trans)

[SarahAndQuack]

My partner is female, as am I, and we have a daughter who recently started school. DP has always had the odd person be confused about her gender, but when we got together there was a big surge in people assuming she was a man, and when DD was born, even more so. DD is nearly five now, and I still find people glance at DP and assume she's a man. I'm posting because one of the school mums - and DD goes to a tiny rural school so there are only a handful of us - has still not clocked that DP is a woman. I was at the school gate chatting and she asked about my husband, so I replied my partner's a woman, and she clearly didn't know what to say.

I find it frustrating because, if you actually bother to look at DP, you can see she's a woman. She always wears jeans or trousers (but women's jeans or trousers), and usually a shirt or a hoodie. Sometimes the shirts are from the menswear section, but the hoodies are generally Seasalt women's. Her hair is short, but so is mine, and no one ever mistakes me for a man. She wears unisex doc martens, but so do lots of women. She's all of 5'8 so not exactly a towering masculine height.

I am aware people misgender her mostly out of kneejerk, unconscious bias: they see one woman (me) and another person, and they automatically decide the other person must be a man. Or they see me and DD and decide the other person must be the dad.

But it's really starting to bother me, because DD is getting old enough to start wondering about what people say, and she is trying to understand what makes someone a man or a woman. She is getting a clear message that her mum is doing womanhood 'wrong', and that people don't think she is a woman, and she's started asking us why. I don't know what to say - and I don't know how to respond to people misgendering DP in a way that is still friendly, but does get across that it's not ok?

You don't need to have the words to describe a cultural shift, that has moved from placing importance on physical sex, to mental and social gender, for that shift to affect the way you see things and the words you choose to use.

Saying this as gently as possible because I haven’t seen your partner. Maybe to you she looks feminine but to others she doesn’t? I’ve done double takes before with FF couples. Also, other people generally just aren’t that interested. They see you, who is definitely female and then see someone who looks manly. They just think MF couple and go back to their own business.

I think the simplest explanation is always the most likely: people see a man and a woman because most couples/parents are a man and a woman. The OP has repeatedly said that this mistake doesn’t happen to her partner when alone so other explanations are highly speculative, and not really necessary.
The question isn’t why does it happen but how to ensure it doesn’t have a negative effect on the daughter.

@lottiegarbanzo

There hasn’t been a cultural shift for most people. You may be in the bubble that it means a lot to - but for most people, physical sex equals gender in their thinking in the same way as always, then there’s trans people who have had sex/gender changes. They don’t think beyond that or care.

It seems like a big deal to you so your vastly overestimating the actual effect it has had on most people which is virtually none. For those not in the bubble, some teenage girls may put she/her on their instagrams and some people hear a few Piers Morgan monologues (or some similar talking head).
That’s the extent of it.

Most people aren’t feminists and following trans issues and trans people are a minuscule minority. It really isn’t the earth shaking issue for 99.9 percent of the world that the feminism boards would have you believe.
Trans vs feminists is a very niche debate between niche groups that the majority don’t really give a crap about.

@lottiegarbanzo

You know you may be right that people wouldn’t have thought “possible trans man” ten years ago actually and just thought “butch lesbian”.

But still the most likely explanation is that they actually think she’s a man. As much as people may not want to get trans or lesbians mixed up - most people also don’t want to immediately jump to calling a slightly feminine man (which may be how they see DP) a woman out of fear of offending either. Or vice versa.

Sorry @Megalameg but I disagree with you there. 16 year old DD comes home from school virtually everyday saying that another person has declared themselves non-binary or queer, or pansexual or whatever other labels are being invented. It is absolutely a hot topic and seems to be a social contagion. Whether or not these kids discuss it with their parents as my DD does with me is another matter but there is no reason to suspect that the "average mum" (which is what you would no doubt view me as) is not aware of these issues.

I once had a colleague and for a while I didn't know if they were male or female.

She (as it turned out to be) happened to have a gender-neutral name, and we worked in a small office with one unisex toilet. Japanese (the language of the office) tends not to use pronouns very much.

It was a while before I managed to discreetly find out whether this was a man or a woman, and it was stressful. I was really worried about causing offence.

She is really nice and we ended up keeping in touch on social media long term.

Most people are just doing their best and do not mean to cause offence. It can be hard to tell with some people, if they wear clothing often associated with the other biological sex.

I'm astonished that most people think YABU for not wanting to have to endlessly explain "no my partner is female" in 2021. Or perhaps I'm not.

It has echoes for me of the endless "but where are you really from" for anyone lacking milky white skin. Its prejudice, plain and simple. I couldn't agree more! I don't think I could count the number of people who have asked where I'm "really" from. And people who assume my partner can't possibly be our daughter's dad because her and I are very very dark skinned. It's obnoxious.

I am also shocked by the spread of the voting and the ... 'well your partner must look like a man then' responses.

Food is brought to the patients beds so how did they miss your DP as I assume she was lying on the bed heavily pregnant and in labour. Every hospital is different. In mine women were expected to walk to get their own food at breakfast time even post major abdominal surgery.
I have given birth in hospital 3 times, is tea and toast no longer standard after giving birth? It's the first thing tbe nurses offered me after I gave birth. Best toast EVER. I've never heard of this!
No, food wasn't always brought to patients' beds in that hospital. And she didn't have tea and toast after - she'd just had a c section and she wasn't meant to eat immediately. Then they'd bring some meals on trays, but breakfast generally you were meant to go get. OP if you and your partner decide to have another baby, take food and drink. I did due to having Coeliac disease and knowing from experience most of the staff dealing with this had no idea what it was or what was suitable for me. I also packed painkillers for my second which was a lesson I'd learned from my first! Luckily the second time my midwife was pregnant which I felt made a difference to the care I received. I didn't even expect food and water, just painkillers.

Also, very strange they assumed you were the one in labour. Tbh I'd put that down to either prejudice or mind-numbing stupidity.

I never understand this genuinely 🤯 dresses alike and purposely emulates a man in appearance and takes on the traditional role of a man then gets upset when people either mistake them for or think they want to be referred to as a man! This is getting way too difficult to navigate

@BrilliantBetty

They probably think she wants to be referred to as a man if she is wearing men's clothing or unisex and has short hair, looks masculine.

Dammed if they do damned if they don't!!

How are they to know she's not trans if she looks ambiguous.

There’s something in this.

As a male not man that should’ve said

@SeenYourArse

Ikr? If a woman (especially taller) doesn’t have particularly delicate feminine features and goes out of her way to appear in the natural style of a man it’s hardly shocking some people may think she is a man - especially if she’s in a couple with a woman and has a child.

People up here acting all shook by a masculine looking woman who dresses like a man being mistaken for a man lol. Are they for real?

How are they to know she's not trans if she looks ambiguous.

I thought that was quite simple. Women don’t have to look feminine. Butch lesbian haven’t been looking ‘feminine’ fir much longer than the trans agenda has come up. That wasn’t an issue so why is it now?
Do women have no other choice than looking feminine so they are recognised as women? As in long hair, dress, make up? Anything else means you leave the door open to be seen as a man?
I feel like I’ve gone back 59 years tbh.

As for being unsure, well you ASK. Because if the trans agenda should have taught us anything is that we shouldn’t just assume. Why assume you have a trans man in front of you when that person might well actually as they because they are no binary. The assumption is just as hurtful and unacceptable if you follow the trans agenda!

People up here acting all shook by a masculine looking woman who dresses like a man being mistaken for a man lol. Are they for real?

I have very feminine features thank you very much 😀

I get mistaken for a man due to my height and hair length

@MarleneDietrichsSmile

Keep patiently correcting them (and after a while feel free to angrily correct them), they should feel very embarrassed. Maybe tell the school as well?

In a way it shows his deep rooted the idea of how a woman should look is, but then, ironically you add a bit to that yourself by saying your partner does not have a masculine height (therefore implying women my height (6ft+) have a “masculine height” … not having a go at you at all, just showing we all make assumptions

Misgendering really hurts (I hated being asked if I was a boy or a girl) so I do hope it get sorted out

I'm not going to manage to reply to all the comments but thanks everyone.

@marlene - that was deliberate sarcasm! Yes, I know plenty of women are tall.

I’d like to know what are the features of a masculine looking woman.
From this thread, it seems short hair and trousers with no make up makes a woman a man….

@Cattitudes

I wonder whether emphasising that she was the one who was pregnant would help people put her in the right box more. 'Oh yes I am Sarah and Quack's other mother is 'Jane', I tend to do most of the pickups but considering she did the whole pregnancy and birth thing I think it is a good deal!'

It sounds really false writing it down but some sort of variation on that. It answers questions and makes it quite clear to the person. Obviously not to the person in the coffee shop, tmi, but to people at the school gates. Also your partner being more involved in the school so having a higher profile as Jane, Quack's mum than you with the parents. Obviously your partner might prefer to stick pins in her eyes than volunteer to wrap presents for the Christmas fair, but don't we all! Also on the WhatsApp group always 'hi it's Jane, Quack's mum, just checking if anyone has taken home her jumper by mistake'. This of course has the added bonus for you of getting out of some of the shool/ pta drudgery whilst still supporting the school as a family. At this stage it is still early on and half the parents are still trying to figure out which child matches which parent, I can see though it must be very annoying for you all.

YY, we do do this and some people pick it up, but obviously people don't all - and I think sometimes, as several posters have said, people just aren't giving that much attention to the matter, so they're not really listening much. Not suggesting there's anything wrong with this.

Quakers don’t have a church.

@Cailin66 - sorry! That was really bad of me. I meant, denominations (or groups? Not sure if denomination is the right word either). Hope I didn't offend.

@PinkMochi

5’9” is the average height for a British man and the average British woman is 5’3”. Your DP (at 5’8”) is not far off the height of the average man, and she is really tall for a woman.

I’m not sure what “soft butch” means, but if she’s wearing jeans, baggy hoody and has short hair then at first glance she could look quite androgynous. Your Dd is new to the school so hopefully everyone will clock on soon and won’t keep making this mistake. I bet they feel quite embarrassed if they mis-gender your DP. I would be!

Oh, sure, she's tall - what I was getting at was that her height on its own isn't outside the average range for women. A 'soft butch' would be a lesbian who's not feminine but not very butch ... you could say androgynous, I guess, but a bit more stereotypically woman-y than that (it's very hard to describe this without sounding very binary myself!).

@LaLaLaOh

I understand what you mean OP. When I was younger I dated a woman who for lack of better words, was very stereotypically a lesbian. She had long hair that she wore in a ponytail but dressed very butch and was never mistaken for anything other than a lesbian. People just presumed that she was one. If she said something about a partner they’d automatically know she meant female one.

On the other hand, I, especially at the time, am very stereotypically femme. I had waist length long blonde hair, wore lots of makeup, wore pink dresses etc. You get my gist. We were very obviously a couple but people just could not comprehend that because I didn’t ‘look like someone who dated girls’.

She was never mistaken for a man but we could be out and about holding hands and people would mistake us for friends or sisters. If she told people I was her girlfriend they’d laugh and wouldn’t believe her. She’d make a reference and say “oh my girlfriend” whilst I was stood next to her and people would look around to try and locate her girlfriend. This was a few years ago though, I do wonder now with trans being pushed so far to the front of our minds if people would have mistaken her for a man, even though she so obviously wasn’t. I don’t think that helps things and I do think lesbians are kind of being left in the dark now.

People see what they’re expecting to see. I think some of the comments on this thread are rude though. People saying they can’t be bothered to take more than two seconds to look and analyse a situation, when they don’t realise they could be causing potential upset. If you’re not sure on something 100%, then maybe take more than two seconds to look because you could save yourself upsetting someone.

OMG yes, that sounds familiar! I've had people look around for DP's girlfriend when I'm right there too. So weird! Thanks for the sympathy.

@SeenYourArse

I never understand this genuinely 🤯 dresses alike and purposely emulates a man in appearance and takes on the traditional role of a man then gets upset when people either mistake them for or think they want to be referred to as a man! This is getting way too difficult to navigate

Takes on the traditional role of the man? She gave birth to their daughter!

She gave birth to their daughter!

And breast fed

I am now shocked at the turn this thread has taken.... women are not just recognised as women because they wear dresses... what is the 'role of a man'... anyone who doesn't turn up at the school gates regularly?

How do they know she is not trans if she looks ambiguous? Because the majority of people are not.... and why is better to assume she is trans to avoid offending a trans person and instead risk actually offending a woman. ... because we have been brainwashed into believing that there are more trans identifying people than there are gender non conforming people which is just not true.