Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be fed up with people misgendering DP (not trans)

503 replies

SarahAndQuack · 12/11/2021 22:56

My partner is female, as am I, and we have a daughter who recently started school. DP has always had the odd person be confused about her gender, but when we got together there was a big surge in people assuming she was a man, and when DD was born, even more so. DD is nearly five now, and I still find people glance at DP and assume she's a man. I'm posting because one of the school mums - and DD goes to a tiny rural school so there are only a handful of us - has still not clocked that DP is a woman. I was at the school gate chatting and she asked about my husband, so I replied my partner's a woman, and she clearly didn't know what to say.

I find it frustrating because, if you actually bother to look at DP, you can see she's a woman. She always wears jeans or trousers (but women's jeans or trousers), and usually a shirt or a hoodie. Sometimes the shirts are from the menswear section, but the hoodies are generally Seasalt women's. Her hair is short, but so is mine, and no one ever mistakes me for a man. She wears unisex doc martens, but so do lots of women. She's all of 5'8 so not exactly a towering masculine height.

I am aware people misgender her mostly out of kneejerk, unconscious bias: they see one woman (me) and another person, and they automatically decide the other person must be a man. Or they see me and DD and decide the other person must be the dad.

But it's really starting to bother me, because DD is getting old enough to start wondering about what people say, and she is trying to understand what makes someone a man or a woman. She is getting a clear message that her mum is doing womanhood 'wrong', and that people don't think she is a woman, and she's started asking us why. I don't know what to say - and I don't know how to respond to people misgendering DP in a way that is still friendly, but does get across that it's not ok?

OP posts:
C8H10N4O2 · 13/11/2021 10:38

I’m a teacher and people ALWAYS make assumptions about my pay; holidays; working hours etc. Some are very spiteful assumptions indeed

Are you seriously comparing snarks about pay and holidays with the endless, endless negative little comments received by people of supposedly protected characteristics?

JaninaDuszejko · 13/11/2021 10:47

The most likely explanation is <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DvJG698U2Mvo&ved=2ahUKEwiy7YbmgJX0AhVPQUEAHUEFCQYQ-JQHegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw35c2HRk-5afkJXYHPz-Fdd" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Selective Attention. Most people really don't pay much attention at all to other's appearance. I was at work yesterday, I can only remember what 2 people were wearing out of the 20 or so people I spent the day with, some of whom I've worked with for over a decade. Both because their clothes were noteworthy in some way (one had a slogan top on that we spoke about, the other had a jumper that I liked and complimented her on). At school I've spoken to one Mum and mixed her up with another Mum who she shares a few features with (literally only that they are both slim build and have hair of similar colour and length!). Very embarassing.

I think it's just a combination of people making heteronormative assumptions and not paying much attention. I don't think it's the trans effect since it doesn't happen without you although that is a real issue. DD1 is 13 and has had short hair for a few years and regularly has adults telling her she's a boy (or assuming she's trans). She's very slight but at 13 clearly female but it still happens. She's had to get her sister to stand up for her when adults haven't believed she's female. It's really annoying.

DoleWhipFloat · 13/11/2021 10:49

I’m saying that we all make assumptions and that any assumption can hurt.

But assumptions are generally based on previous experience and are not intended to deliberately hurt, so why get offended by them?

You are implying that people should know. Because this is about gender/sex. It’s therefore special.

Reality is many people don’t have a clue. Where I’m from I hardly ever see same sex couples…or perhaps I do, but I just don’t know it.

Unless people are out to cause offence, why get offended?

C8H10N4O2 · 13/11/2021 10:52

@DoleWhipFloat

I’m saying that we all make assumptions and that any assumption can hurt.

But assumptions are generally based on previous experience and are not intended to deliberately hurt, so why get offended by them?

You are implying that people should know. Because this is about gender/sex. It’s therefore special.

Reality is many people don’t have a clue. Where I’m from I hardly ever see same sex couples…or perhaps I do, but I just don’t know it.

Unless people are out to cause offence, why get offended?

There is a massive difference about people persistently making snarks or hurtful assumptions about something you can actually change eg a job and something you can't change eg protected characteristic.

That is rather the point of them.

TopCatsTopHat · 13/11/2021 10:55

Well said DoleWhipFloat

TheOccupier · 13/11/2021 10:56

I haven't RTFT but maybe DP could get some clothes from here:
www.adulthumanfemale.store/clothing

(I have their adult human female t-shirt and it's lovely quality)

JaninaDuszejko · 13/11/2021 10:56

Oh, and rather than everyone expecting your DP to change her clothes I wonder if the missexing would stop if you wore a more androgenous outfit than normal. Might be an interesting experiment to try.

Dropcloth · 13/11/2021 11:05

@DoleWhipFloat

I’m saying that we all make assumptions and that any assumption can hurt.

But assumptions are generally based on previous experience and are not intended to deliberately hurt, so why get offended by them?

You are implying that people should know. Because this is about gender/sex. It’s therefore special.

Reality is many people don’t have a clue. Where I’m from I hardly ever see same sex couples…or perhaps I do, but I just don’t know it.

Unless people are out to cause offence, why get offended?

Let’s see. You may genuinely not ‘intend to cause offence’, but I can assure you that your terribly surprised questions about why I have only one child, why I don’t drink, and do I really have a doctorate (based on your supposed ‘previous information’ about Irish people breeding like rabbits, and being feckless alcoholics) are actually offensive. Because they’re based on dimwit ethnic stereotypes about a group. Oh, and you might once have known an Irish person who had five children.

Based on some of the more innocuous variants of this conversation I had over a quarter of a century in England.

TracyLords · 13/11/2021 11:07

@JaninaDuszejko I think I suffered from this when DS was a baby. There was another mum at the group who was more chatty some weeks than others, and I could have sworn she sounded different. Only mother with multiples at the group. I later found out that it was a couple of women who took turns taking the kids to the group. DH was appalled as apparently they looked completely different to him. To me they looked the same as they both wore similar clothes and hairstyles

NeedAHoliday2021 · 13/11/2021 11:12

My daughters are year 6 and I’ve no idea who everyone’s parents are. I know a few have divorced over the years so I’m careful with what I say but generally don’t speak to many of the other parents. No one really cares on the school run, they’re trying to make polite chitchat so don’t over think it.

HippyMoon · 13/11/2021 11:15

Oh this would do my box in. DP and I are lesbians and whilst we're both quite butch, DP does get this a fair bit. I'm expecting it a lot more when we have kids. I don't blame you for being annoyed OP!

DoleWhipFloat · 13/11/2021 11:15

@Dropcloth

Que?

Why are you so angry?

We are humans and we should be allowed to make mistakes without being made to feel like awful people.

If someone makes an assumption about me, I politely correct them (if I’m that bothered) and move on.
People are generally happy to be corrected. And then apologetic.

I’m not going to tip toe around everyone else in the world, just incase I might offend someone without realising it. I’m not psychic so I suspect I’ll make a few errors.

Or do you want us all to give up pronouns just incase someone is referred to with the wrong pronoun which causes offence?

Why are we complicating ‘manners’?

Dropcloth · 13/11/2021 11:35

[quote DoleWhipFloat]@Dropcloth

Que?

Why are you so angry?

We are humans and we should be allowed to make mistakes without being made to feel like awful people.

If someone makes an assumption about me, I politely correct them (if I’m that bothered) and move on.
People are generally happy to be corrected. And then apologetic.

I’m not going to tip toe around everyone else in the world, just incase I might offend someone without realising it. I’m not psychic so I suspect I’ll make a few errors.

Or do you want us all to give up pronouns just incase someone is referred to with the wrong pronoun which causes offence?

Why are we complicating ‘manners’?[/quote]
Why are you suddenly speaking Spanish?

It’s perfectly obvious why I was made angry by other people’s ignorant, xenophobic prejudices about my nationality. Your point was that assumptions, unless intentionally malicious, shouldn’t cause offence, because they’re (apparently) based on people’s previous knowledge. I was giving you an example from my own life where such ‘assumptions’ were not consciously intended to hurt but were nonetheless violently offensive and based on deeply unpleasant stage-Irish stereotypes.

Really, it gets wearing to have to explain, repeatedly that, no, not all Irish people worship the Pope, drink like fish, support the IRA, are from families of thirteen, and have the intellectual attainment of a character in a Paddy Irishman joke.

I have not mentioned pronouns.

MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry · 13/11/2021 11:42

@lnsufficientFuns

They’re probably misgendering out of politeness

Since are all so scared of mislabelling each other now 🙄

People are so scared of causing offence hat they’re probably not thinking logically

I’d say this is exactly what it is. The fear of being accused of being transphobic or deliberately misgendering has been swiftly and firmly instilled in society in the last decade.
DoleWhipFloat · 13/11/2021 11:46

I didn’t say they were. I’m half Spanish by the way.

I am making only a few points here related ONLY to the OP. I am not having a wider discussion about ethics.

  1. Rightly or wrongly, humans are not perfect. We make mistakes.
  2. If a person is happy to be corrected, and in certain cases, if warranted, apologetic…that should be enough.

I like to live and let live. I’m not interested in anyone else, what they do, how many babies they have, who they fancy, where they are from. But, despite my tolerance for others, I still might make a few mistakes.

And people will make mistakes about me. But that’s life, no explaining needed and we should just be able to tolerate that too.

Just to point out, I am NOT talking about intended forms of discrimination, or people who are looking to insult and cause offence.

Boatonthehorizon · 13/11/2021 11:50

Irish people are also bad tempered 😆

MrsJamPanMan · 13/11/2021 12:07

You have my sympathy, OP. There seem to be a lot of people talking a lot of bollocks on here and paying no attention to the actual stated problem. Amongst all the dross, there has been some good advice about talking to your daughter so I hope you are glad you posted.
Both of you getting very embedded in the school community, PTA and so on might help in a way as you would become a well known couple, but obviously communicating with your daughter so that she is happy and understands if this happens elsewhere is the key thing. It must help her that you are so reasonable and understanding of why people do it.

MrsJamPanMan · 13/11/2021 12:13

“ I’m half Spanish by the way.”
¿Cómo?

Sniv · 13/11/2021 12:48

I have no answers but a lot of sympathy. My DP and I don't get confused for blokes in person, but when I'm alone, it is so awkward navigating the regular assumption that if I have a partner, it must be a man – especially when it's in situations where it just isn't comfortable/possible to be like 'oh, I'm with A LADY actually'.

I get why people make that assumption. I don't think it is malicious. I understand why people who don't have it happen to them might think I'm being precious and that they would just shrug it off. Each individual interaction isn't really much to complain about. But the cumulative effect is so...invalidating? Othering? I don't know. It's a fuckin downer anyway.

LaLaLaOh · 13/11/2021 12:50

@DoleWhipFloat

People make assumptions, it’s what we do. Our brains naturally makes deductions based on the evidence before us. If the sky is full of black cloud, we assume it’s going to rain. If it looks like a man, it must be a man.

We ALL have assumptions made about us.

People have assumed I can’t possibly ever have been bullied because of how I look, but I was bullied horrendously in school.

People assume that because I’m a woman, I can’t possible want to have sex very much…DH made me a gift and his friend said ‘nudge nudge, you’re bound to get lucky tonight!’. I’m in fact the one with the high drive in my relationship and DH is the one who would rather go to sleep. I wanted to scream that one out.

I’m a teacher and people ALWAYS make assumptions about my pay; holidays; working hours etc. Some are very spiteful assumptions indeed.

Yes, having assumptions made about you is annoying, but really, is it worth getting so upset about? Considering that it’s not just you…and perhaps YOU have actually assumed something about someone else that isn’t correct. You may not even know it.

My advice would be to relax. Correct people politely when it happens and don’t allow yourself to get so offended by this…otherwise your whole life is going to be pretty miserable.

Literally not a single one of these is akin to being called a man over and over again when you are stood there with your wife.

People making assumptions about your pay? Really?

logsonlogsoff · 13/11/2021 12:53

Yanbu - people
Do Make assumptions particularly when you have kids. It’s annoying. Both DW and I get asked about our husbands a lot and politely correct people. And a friend of ours gets called ‘sir’ all the time despite looking like a boyish woman.

Megalameg · 13/11/2021 13:35

@lottiegarbanzo

Lol, no most teenagers (the vast majority) don’t give a crap about gender identity and more than they do about same sex attraction, unless they actually are/identify as either of those things. Dont kid yourself.

lottiegarbanzo · 13/11/2021 13:37

They've heard of it though. As has just about everyone.

Megalameg · 13/11/2021 13:43

Oh they have heard of it and as you say, most mock it or are like “whatever” and most aren’t feminist at all - your right about all that - but what I’m saying is most people don’t know the whole silly academic argument of gender being different from sex and all that jazz. To most people they’re the same thing, they don’t differentiate in their minds at all.

lottiegarbanzo · 13/11/2021 13:48

Perceiving someone as a man and thinking they might be a transman are very different things though. Different perceptions. My point was that some people might be thinking that OP's DP wants to be perceived as a man, so describe her that way.

I don't think that idea would have been around ten years ago, they'd have thought 'lesbian' not 'transman'.