To be fed up with people misgendering DP (not trans)

[SarahAndQuack]

My partner is female, as am I, and we have a daughter who recently started school. DP has always had the odd person be confused about her gender, but when we got together there was a big surge in people assuming she was a man, and when DD was born, even more so. DD is nearly five now, and I still find people glance at DP and assume she's a man. I'm posting because one of the school mums - and DD goes to a tiny rural school so there are only a handful of us - has still not clocked that DP is a woman. I was at the school gate chatting and she asked about my husband, so I replied my partner's a woman, and she clearly didn't know what to say.

I find it frustrating because, if you actually bother to look at DP, you can see she's a woman. She always wears jeans or trousers (but women's jeans or trousers), and usually a shirt or a hoodie. Sometimes the shirts are from the menswear section, but the hoodies are generally Seasalt women's. Her hair is short, but so is mine, and no one ever mistakes me for a man. She wears unisex doc martens, but so do lots of women. She's all of 5'8 so not exactly a towering masculine height.

I am aware people misgender her mostly out of kneejerk, unconscious bias: they see one woman (me) and another person, and they automatically decide the other person must be a man. Or they see me and DD and decide the other person must be the dad.

But it's really starting to bother me, because DD is getting old enough to start wondering about what people say, and she is trying to understand what makes someone a man or a woman. She is getting a clear message that her mum is doing womanhood 'wrong', and that people don't think she is a woman, and she's started asking us why. I don't know what to say - and I don't know how to respond to people misgendering DP in a way that is still friendly, but does get across that it's not ok?

It sounds difficult to deal with. I’m not sure the answer, but hopefully in a year or two a combination of knowing more people and dd getting older sorts it out

Yes I have been misgendered a few times when I had short hair OP. I’m 5ft4 and I was a very slender 19 year old at the time so I think people through i was a 14 year old boy a lot. Honestly, it’s why I grew my hair out. When I had short hair people would come up to me in the street or at work(retail) just to tell me it suited me and looked amazing. But I couldn’t cope with the few that just glanced and made an assumption, to be honest it made me feel ugly when realistically it had no bearing on how feminine my face actually was or my figure. People just weren’t looking. I definitely think people are seeing a height and style difference and just making an assumption. Sorry it’s upsetting your partner! It can feel upsetting but it has no connection to how feminine she will actually look, people just put us in categories very quickly.

As you mentioned it bothering your DD I wonder if it's worth talking to the class teacher. If they were happy to have a discussion with the kids about different family types then the kids would speak up and say no, that's not x's dad, she has 2 mums. Get the message out more quickly and forcefully.

Whilst not something your partner should have to go through in a way I think it's a positive that it's taking a while to get the message out. In high school, many years ago, a friend had 2 mums, in primary he was open, it became the gossip of the school and he was bullied but didn't tell his mums as he didn't want to upset them. At high school he kept it to him self.

Now its so accepted no one's talking about it, as it should always have been.

@Beckert

In contrast, the OP and her partner have an actual issue that is beginning to affect their daughter.

What would you suggest op does about it, in a rapidly changing society where if you now dress like a man, then you are a man? (Even if you clearly aren't) This isnt an isolated problem by any stretch, and a direct symptom of the mess society seems to have got itself in to.

I agree with you entirely on the encroaching damage TRA is having on women’s lives, and specifically on lesbians’ lives, but the OP’s girlfriend doesn’t ‘dress like a man’ — she’s in Next jeans and flowery Seasalt hoodies.

Actually, I'd go so far as to say that the vast majority of British adults know about 'gender identity' and the phrase 'identify as...'. Most of them find it absurd and use it only humorously and mockingly. They're not feminists. 'Gender identity' is not esoteric, academic knowledge.

School mums are probably nicer and kinder than people commenting on online news articles, so it is possible they're trying to get it right.

By your own admission you said she looks like a man at a glance.
Sorry but people aren't that interested in you to have a proper look

I think people try and fit others into the small categories they perceive as the norm in their little bubble.

When I was with my ex we both looked very "feminine" for want of a better phrase and people would go out of their way to call her my friend instead of my partner.

And of course the question all lesbian couples get asked "which one is the man?" Ummm neither of us that's the whole point!

I agree with the pp who thought that people were somehow assuming your partner identifies as male, rather than than she is male.
Although as you say, there is also probably an element of just assuming, without really looking. I had close cropped very short hair for a while, at thirty, and I was mistaken for a young boy a few times. Often people just glance at hair, and don’t look beyond it.
Does your partner not chat to other parents at the school gates ?

I'm astonished that most people think YABU for not wanting to have to endlessly explain "no my partner is female" in 2021. Or perhaps I'm not.

It has echoes for me of the endless "but where are you really from" for anyone lacking milky white skin. Its prejudice, plain and simple.

No answers op, but as a single parent I share your irritation that the school crowd assume that every nice child lives in a nice house with their mummy and daddy, despite the evidence of their own eyes.

Op- we are also a lesbian couple with a child, and we are a butch/femme couple (my wife only wears mens clothes and has a shaved head, and is big).

Something that jumps out at me as a positive spin on your situation at school is that if no one is noticing you as a lesbian couple then they probably don’t think it’s a big issue, ie they just see other school parents and treat you as ‘normal’ in their heads.

When our child started school my wife had barely anything to do with the place because she was always at work, she maybe did one school run a year. Still everyone knew we were the gay parents because as soon as one or two noticed it was the hot topic of gossip. Which is annoying in its own way.

People do just code everyone around them into groups all the time. When our baby was born (I gave birth) they had colouring much more like my wife and people who saw us together presumed she was mum and I was her friend.

I think all you can do is keep having light hearted conversations with your daughter about it and she will learn that other people make snap judgements about people but that it doesn’t actually matter.

To be honest, the way things are going now, people probably (wrongly) assume that your partner is a feminine looking man so refer to her as such, trying (but failing) to be inclusive.

If I were the parents at the gate I just wouldn’t say anything. I’d be terrified to get it wrong especially when it’s not obvious

Really interesting thread OP, sorry about the upset this is causing your partner and you on her behalf.

Two thoughts occur to me.

I have a two year old and we live in a tiny not very diverse village. We were out the other day and I saw one of the mums of what I think is the only lesbian couple who live here who I don’t know but say a passing hi to going past with the kids from nursery. She’s tall, broad, has very short hair and was in jeans, boots and a hoody and DD said very loudly as we passed “that’s a nice lady mummy”. Completely unprompted, we were talking about what to have for dinner. DD knew she was a woman and she is. Lucky for us she’s not identifying as anything else. A toddler knows a butch looking lesbian is a woman, she knows an old woman with short hair we say hi to is a woman, she knows man bun guy across the road with very long beautiful hair is a man.

I don’t know why but she does. And it’ll be awkward as fuck if that means she’ll end up misgendering a trans identifying person but it’s thankfully not yet a crime.

Adults might know but they’re all currently being told to distrust their instinct. I’m on a breastfeeding forum where we’ve recently been collectively berated for assuming a mum who’s breastfeeding is a mum who’s breastfeeding. “We DO NOT make assumptions about how our members identify or that they are breastfeeding. Many of our members don’t identify as female, or mums, and are chestfeeding. Talk of breastfeeding can be very triggering”.

Blimey, this thread moved on! I was on page 7 and refreshed, and now I need to dash out (ironically, because we're meeting the local lesbian mums group!). But I will come back and read properly, and thanks for advice. Going by what I've got up to at the end of page 7, I definitely need to buy Pirate Mums! DD will love that, she's into pirates atm.

"This whole thread is showing how the idea of being homosexual still not fully accepted in society and seen as ‘normal’"

I disagree. Implying there is homophobia everywhere, when I don't think there is. Most of the posters on this thread probably don't care/mind. I don't care if anyone is gay/bi/trans/anything - doesn't bother me.

I'd be taken aback but I wouldn't assume your partner was transgender or anything else really. I would just feel embarrassed for saying the wrong thing, a bit confused and maybe out of my depth. I agree it would be simpler for everyone if you could just say "my wife Jenny" and then I would know what to say and do from then on, but that's not possible so I guess you're stuck with confusing people. At least until the CofE changes it mind, they're revisiting the question next year(?) though I worry the recent controversy over transgender will put things back.

A while ago I spent quite a lot of time with some transwomen and for a day or two afterwards I'd find myself clocking every woman I passed in the street above average height as a transwoman. And I found the effect faded quickly when I didn't see them for a few days. We're creatures of snap visual judgments - well, I am anyway. And at first sight I probably make all sorts of unconscious assumptions about same-sex parents too, like the more feminine-looking person is the mother and it takes me a little time to adjust my perceptions to reality. I have a married niece, she and her wife have a baby each now and I expect all sorts of assumptions get made about who is Mum. They put people right and keep going.

As for DD, there's no shortcut to learning that doing womanhood "different" isn't the same as doing it "wrong" She has better role models than most.

@NeedsCharging

Nothing happened so I went to enquire, and they assumed I was the mum in labour. DP thinks this is hilarious but I am still absolutely fucking furious that she didn't get a meal in 24 hours of labour, and then on the post-delivery ward they kicked up a stink about me getting her a meal because women aren't allowed to get food for their partners.

You are a size 12 so obviously don't look pregnant walking around normally but the staff on the labour ward assumed you were in labour and asking for food for your male partner?

Food is brought to the patients beds so how did they miss your DP as I assume she was lying on the bed heavily pregnant and in labour.
I have given birth in hospital 3 times, is tea and toast no longer standard after giving birth? It's the first thing tbe nurses offered me after I gave birth. Best toast EVER.

I find it odd that staff on a labour ward and on the post natal ward assumed the size 12 woman walking about normally was pregnant or had just given birth. Especially as the majority of women on both those wards are usually in PJs/dressing gowns and not walking around normally!

No, food wasn't always brought to patients' beds in that hospital. And she didn't have tea and toast after - she'd just had a c section and she wasn't meant to eat immediately. Then they'd bring some meals on trays, but breakfast generally you were meant to go get.

It was definitely odd.

You think she looks like a woman because you know she is. But other people thinks she's a man so she obviously does look like a man. No one is being rude on purpose.

Dear@SarahAndQuack, I haven't read the whole thread; just the first page and all of your replies. I can attest to you looking very feminine and beautiful we have met.

As far as the school community is concerned I think they are just fallible and thinking about 101 things and subconsciously letting their unconscious bias prevail. More than 20 years ago a boy in ds's class had two mums and whilst their were a few raised eyebrows in reception (wrong but 20 years ago.......) by the time the children were in Yr 1 they were Jane and Helen and just mums like the rest of us. As you say your dd is only 5 so it's early days and I think for now you just have to be yourselves. However, you do for this little while whist dd is feeling sensitive to put her at the centre and whilst it may irk may I gently suggest that your wife for a a few weeks perhaps adds a pink scarf or some other feminine accoutrement - I appreciate it goes against the grain but to bring on board a commu ity where dd is new, it might be worth thinking about at least.

Also re the CofE and marriage, I have friends who are both gay and Anglican priests/vicars/rectors - however they are styled. I would not attend an Anglican church where the vicar did not think the church's stance was wrong. With the right vicar I honestly believe that a blessing would signify you were married before God and that is what is important. The certificate can be produced anywhere and confers the legal rights rather than God's love and approval. The God I worship supports all marriages - it's belief that matters not the misaligned narrow mindedness that voted against women bishops not so many years ago. What happened to Geoffery John (sp) was a travesty but it wouldn't happen now and the church is inching its way forward. You could wait until it gets there officially but the disciples didn't do that, they forged ahead on the basis of knowing what was right and Christian to spread the word.

Go well - I am quite sure the misperceptions are but a bump along the road.

Beckert your comment about dressing like a man is spot on, I have spent a lifetime dressed in army surplus and men’s clothes often. Thats a comfort and practicality issue for me. Started 40 years ago, when I could buy my own clothes. I had waist length hair but people often thought I was gay, I assume some may think I think I’m a man now. I didn’t care if people, assumed I was gay but I don’t want to be misgendered.

Sorry op I can see why you personally find it hard and on a superficial level there is a well maybe she does look like a man but really on a personal and a societal level it’s ignoring lesbianism.

@stayathomer

Op i dont know how to say this because you seem so upset by it all but even listing the way your DP doesn't look like a man, ie your comparison of the clothes women can sometimes wear etc, and the fact you both have short hair etc ... I don't think it's automatically that people see you and your DP togather and think man woman, I honestly think there's a chance that she just looks like a man. And it's terrible people don't all know, more because by now they should know you both personally now because you're a member of the school community, in the same way people see me and say hi stay at Homer or see dh and say hi mr stay at Homer, but I honestly do not know every single person at our (small country school's) gates, and they wouldn't all know my dh (and I'm honestlythe worst person for not knowingpeopl, I work in a shop and some customerscall me by my first name and it turns out apparently we know each other!!) . If the lady was confused when you told her, then she just didn't know. And hugs op, because you sound lovely and so upset, but as for your child, the 3 of you just need to have a chat, and it definitely doesn't need to be a big deal, but you and your other half need to talk first about it because there's no need for your child to think there's bias against her mum or you as a couple. Hope this post is okay, I'm bad at saying things correctly on mn but you just sounded so upset

That's such a kind message and I really appreciate your concern.

DP and I do talk about it - I think I'm not as upset as perhaps I sound? I don't know. It's just one of those things that bothers me.

I don't think DP would automatically assume 'you look like a man' is insulting. If you've ever seen Gentleman Jack, we thought that show did it really well. To our modern eyes it's so obvious she's a woman, she's in skirts and all, but to little children who expect all women to be wearing massive candy-coloured floofy dresses, she does get perceived as a man.

I guess I just feel as if we haven't quite figured out how to have the conversations yet. We do do a bit of pointed 'my wife' or 'my partner LadyName' and I absolutely take the point that people at the school gate are busy and there's no reason they should care.

People make assumptions, it’s what we do. Our brains naturally makes deductions based on the evidence before us. If the sky is full of black cloud, we assume it’s going to rain. If it looks like a man, it must be a man.

We ALL have assumptions made about us.

People have assumed I can’t possibly ever have been bullied because of how I look, but I was bullied horrendously in school.

People assume that because I’m a woman, I can’t possible want to have sex very much…DH made me a gift and his friend said ‘nudge nudge, you’re bound to get lucky tonight!’. I’m in fact the one with the high drive in my relationship and DH is the one who would rather go to sleep. I wanted to scream that one out.

I’m a teacher and people ALWAYS make assumptions about my pay; holidays; working hours etc. Some are very spiteful assumptions indeed.

Yes, having assumptions made about you is annoying, but really, is it worth getting so upset about? Considering that it’s not just you…and perhaps YOU have actually assumed something about someone else that isn’t correct. You may not even know it.

My advice would be to relax. Correct people politely when it happens and don’t allow yourself to get so offended by this…otherwise your whole life is going to be pretty miserable.

There are also "feminine" ways of moving, walking and sitting that women are socialised into. The shoes help with that, forcing our bodies into less comfortable ways of walking (not just high heels, all the little flat shoes that don't stay on your feet well if you take a big stride). In the series you mentioned Suranne Jones (is that right?) dressed differently but her whole movements were more stereotypically masculine. Body language may also give us a snap impression of someone being male when they are actually female.

Is there any chance people think she's trans and are in fact trying not to misgender?

I think you're expecting too much, too soon. My daughter has just started reception and I haven't even spoken to the other parents, let alone know their names or whether their partner is male, female or whatever.

It's not unreasonable for people to assume your partner is male, and if she isn't obviously female on a first, sideways glance, then you can't expect people to immediately know you're in a same sex relationship.

As others have said, just politely correct people and eventually everyone will get it right. These things take time.