To be fed up with people misgendering DP (not trans)

[SarahAndQuack]

My partner is female, as am I, and we have a daughter who recently started school. DP has always had the odd person be confused about her gender, but when we got together there was a big surge in people assuming she was a man, and when DD was born, even more so. DD is nearly five now, and I still find people glance at DP and assume she's a man. I'm posting because one of the school mums - and DD goes to a tiny rural school so there are only a handful of us - has still not clocked that DP is a woman. I was at the school gate chatting and she asked about my husband, so I replied my partner's a woman, and she clearly didn't know what to say.

I find it frustrating because, if you actually bother to look at DP, you can see she's a woman. She always wears jeans or trousers (but women's jeans or trousers), and usually a shirt or a hoodie. Sometimes the shirts are from the menswear section, but the hoodies are generally Seasalt women's. Her hair is short, but so is mine, and no one ever mistakes me for a man. She wears unisex doc martens, but so do lots of women. She's all of 5'8 so not exactly a towering masculine height.

I am aware people misgender her mostly out of kneejerk, unconscious bias: they see one woman (me) and another person, and they automatically decide the other person must be a man. Or they see me and DD and decide the other person must be the dad.

But it's really starting to bother me, because DD is getting old enough to start wondering about what people say, and she is trying to understand what makes someone a man or a woman. She is getting a clear message that her mum is doing womanhood 'wrong', and that people don't think she is a woman, and she's started asking us why. I don't know what to say - and I don't know how to respond to people misgendering DP in a way that is still friendly, but does get across that it's not ok?

Hi OP, in one of your earlier posts you were asking for book recommendations for children of lesbian parents. I wonder if any of the books mentioned in this link might appeal www.parents.com/parenting/dynamics/gay-parents/seven-great-childrens-books-with-same-sex-parents/

Another potential good one might be Zak's Safari - but google it first as it goes more into conception so may or may not be what you're looking for right now.

Really sorry the ignorance of the parents at your daughter's school is starting to affect her.

I think you've answered your own question in your title, to an extent.

People are getting her sex wrong but you wrote 'misgendered'.

That would make sense if gender had the same meaning as sex but (in the humanities and popular vernacular, rather than the sciences) it doesn't.

People don't usually get other people's sex wrong (they can). People often and easily get other people's gender wrong - because gender is in people's heads, so harder to see and guess correctly than their body.

That and the fact that there's currently much more emphasis on gender, the way some people perceive and choose to change it and how very, very important it is to be kind and accepting of those people, than there is on biological sex and same-sex relationships (old news), means that people are 'seeing gender' where they never did before and prioritising gender in the way they perceive and talk about other people.

So, people are seeing 'maybe a transman', instead of an old-fashioned lesbian. They're trying to say the right thing, in terms of the prevalent popular orthodoxy.

Lesbians just aren't fashionable enough. That's your problem.

I've skimmed the thread, so apologies if I've missed something vital...

I'm sorry your DP (and you and DD) have to go through this, it must be really annoying.

Could part of it be the rise of 'trans'. I work in a high school and loads of obviously female pupils are identifying as trans and claiming he/him pronouns at the moment. Their trans identity seems to be entirely based on wearing trousers (and women's trousers at that).

I teach identical twins in different classes and really struggle to remember which one has male pronouns. They both have just shoulder length hair and wear the girls uniform trousers.

Could it be that people are trying to err on the side of caution and wrongly assuming that everyone wearing non-girly clothes with short hair (and a female partner) wants to me referred to with male pronouns?

I'd be tempted to make some sort of announcement on the class WhatsApp or Facebook just saying something like 'Hi all, there seem to be some misconceptions about our family, so to clear them up: we are both female, DD has two mums. (DP) actually gave birth to DD, we're not married yet, but if you can't remember 'partner' please use 'wife', thanks'

@donquixotedelamancha

But I don't think she does, and more to the point, when she's not with me and in a family grouping, people don't think she does.

Bottom line: gender stereotypes exist. They are so ingrained that there are currently quite a lot of people arguing that how you present is literally what makes you male or female.

Either change a little bit to fit more with those stereotypes or learn to live with the friction of not fitting. Get your lassie in a dress and bright red lippy or just correct people who get it wrong (I'd snog passionately in front of anyone who acts like it's a problem).

That's it. Those are your two options.

I think that gets to the heart of it

I agree that this is down to the rise of "gender" and transgender, non-binary etc etc.

Many of us who don't buy into it are still worried about offending people.

All this gender claptrap has got us all not knowing what to say for the best. I would politely state the fact that your partner is a woman, a biological female, and gets a bit upset at being thought of as otherwise. Rightly so IMHO.

What about a civil service and then asking for a blessing?

I understand OP's hopes that the CofE will eventually move on this, although considering the way things are, and the singular lack of courage the church has shown over this thus far, I sadly don't believe they will any time soon. Marriage may be a contract in law, but for some sacramentally religious people it is also, or indeed primarily, a sacrament, and it is hurtful that female/male couples can do the legal and sacramental bit all at once while same-sex couples can't and are relegated to having a 'blessing'. I personally see that more pragmatically but I live in a country where there is no state church and you have to have the civil ceremony whether you have a religious wedding or not, so there isn't this very sharp distinction/two-tier status you get wrt the CofE.

OP, like many, I wold say this is people's long-trained biases kicking in before their brains. My experience of living as a foreigner/immigrant in a European country (as an English speaker and near-native in the local language but often assumed visually to belong to a less 'prestige' group of immigrants) has some parallels, I think. Tbh I've come through the phase of raging against it. I have fully recognised and continue to deplore the racism/xenophobia at the bottom of some of the reactions I get, but established a routine of calm and polite (but minimal - don't owe all-comers a full account of who I am) explaining.

I was chatting to another mum at kindergarten pick-up yesterday who has fairly recently split up with her dcs' father and they have a very 50/50 model. I was asking her a couple of things about organisational stuff and she said 'oh, I don't know about that, it'll have been on my ex's time' - that happened two or three times during the conversation and I was soon kicking myself for the assumption of a two-parent model that might have been in operation in my questions. We all work from our own view of the world, and sometimes that view is less than ideally acknowledging of diversity. I don't really like having to advise you this, but I think I would (as you and your dp) be a bit more Teflon about it - just keep on being who you are and people will, eventually, absorb the info.

*'two-parent living in same house' model

The thing is that typically (I use that term as it's the most common arrangement) couples with children are one man one woman so its easy to make that assumption. i have issues

If you & your colleagues in academic research think that humans can't tell the difference between male & female humans then why would you be surprised/annoyed that people get it wrong w.r.t. your partner

Indeed.

I would assume they think dp is a transman and are trying to be polite tbh. That's the difficulty these days when men identify as women and vice versa. People get tied up in knots trying to be polite.

I think we are in limbo trying and tying ourselves in knots what to call anyone without fear of getting it wrong or critism.

I'd have no idea what to call such a parent I'd try and avoid it but if course when you can't remember parents names it's easier to say oh your mummy /daddy isn't it!

Unfortunately people seem to think the world revolves around them and their choices, we all have issues and problems in our lives, I suggest you both chill and understand its potential confusing for well meaning people.

It is awkward. There was a woman on the tv on a panel show the other day who was using male pronouns. No one blinking an eye about it.
It did make me doubt my perception. I wasnt quite sure. It's probably that.

I do hope society doesnt start assuming all non girly women are men. For a start thats me male.
Its happening in schools. If a girl persistently refuses to eg curl her long locks, rumours start that she's trans = really a man but in denial about it.

So sorry this is happening to your partner

I get misgendered a fair bit but usually because at first glimpse I’m similar to your partner, 5 8, broad across the shoulders, well built (overweight 😳 not saying your partner is but its another thing that adds to my ‘manliness’) jeans and a jacket and short hair…

I do wear makeup though but as i say its first glances…though i was called sir in the doctors the other day and you’d have thought theyd have noticed the tits!

I really don’t understand why it keeps happening at the school when there is more than a passing glance….and with the breastfeeding and birth, but its obviously very upsetting

As others have said the only thing you can do is keep correcting people

People are probably just assuming you have a husband as you've sent your child to a church school so are more likely to be married (to a man) rather than mistaking your gf for a man. Lots of people collect children from school, grandparents, childminders, aunty's, family friends etc. I never assume whoever is collecting a child is the parent as most parents work. If I saw 2 women alternating collecting the same child I wouldn't clock and think oh look they must be a couple, I just wouldn't think.

I also agree that it's likely to be down to the rise of gender ideology and the idea that if you don't present as stereotypically feminine than you must really be a man. It's such a regressive and damaging ideology.

Added to that the abuse people get for accidentally misgendering someone who is trans they are probably erring on the side of caution and thinking that if there's a possibility that she is trans they should call her "he" etc.

Gender ideology is particularly damaging to anyone homosexual, especially lesbians, but also to women as it ingrains gender stereotypes that are harmful to women.

do hope society doesnt start assuming all non girly women are men

It does seem to be happening a lot now. I doubt people actually think they are men, but just assuming those women are identifying as men if they don't fit into a feminine stereotype of woman.

@Naughtynovembertree

I think we are in limbo trying and tying ourselves in knots what to call anyone without fear of getting it wrong or critism.

I'd have no idea what to call such a parent I'd try and avoid it but if course when you can't remember parents names it's easier to say oh your mummy /daddy isn't it!

Unfortunately people seem to think the world revolves around them and their choices, we all have issues and problems in our lives, I suggest you both chill and understand its potential confusing for well meaning people.

I think that suggesting @SarahAndQuack and her partner ‘chill’ is a bit much, in the context of a forum where all evidence suggests that the school run for straight, conventionally ‘feminine’ women is virtually inevitably fraught with dramatic rudeness, exclusions by Alpha Mums, ‘cliques’, side-eye, backturnings, gossip etc.

In contrast, the OP and her partner have an actual issue that is beginning to affect their daughter.

I've not read the full thread, but if it helps I'm regularly called sir or mistaken for a man.

I'm very feminine in my look, long hair, make up, high heels, skirts, dresses etc BUT I'm 6ft without my heels, even taller when I rock the 4 inch heels.

I think sometimes people just see the height and think man.

I call them my Miranda moments after Miranda Hart and her great sketch dealing with this. Inwardly I just turn to camera and say 'rude'.

In contrast, the OP and her partner have an actual issue that is beginning to affect their daughter.

What would you suggest op does about it, in a rapidly changing society where if you now dress like a man, then you are a man? (Even if you clearly aren't) This isnt an isolated problem by any stretch, and a direct symptom of the mess society seems to have got itself in to.

I don’t know why it’s happening and I’m sorry it’s bothering you.
I actually came along to 😂 ✋ at “I am far too Anglican to talk earnestly about God, but it really does feel important to me.”

@lottiegarbanzo

Outside of the trans-feminist debate bubble most people have no idea some people even think sex and gender are different. To most people they mean the exact same thing. To the academic humanities sex and gender might not meant the same thing but your kidding yourself if you think they don’t mean the same thing in the real world popular vernacular.

Most people aren’t up on trans stuff and wouldn’t have a clue what feminists think about it. So the most likely explanation is that the people who are thinking DP is a man do see because they honestly mistake her for the male sex and gender - which to most people are one and the same.

You may be passionate about the trans and feminist gender argument - but the truth is your average Mum at school pick up know fuck all about it.

@SarahAndQuack - I’m sorry this keeps happening to you. You could take it as a good sign that the school mums aren’t horribly gossipy, if they are being this slow on the uptake?

Tbf, there are some women that you have to look at quite carefully if you want to be certain they are women and not feminine-looking men, and I really don’t think you should expect people to look at someone’s trousers and be able to identify them as men or women from that - my brother used to complain they didn’t sell men’s trousers for skinny men with big hips like him, and some of my female friends used to wear men’s jeans because they were skinny women with small hips, so body shapes are quite variable and, if not interested in fashion, clothes are just clothes. I’ve also looked up the Seasalt clothing you refer to and it doesn’t shout “feminine” to me, tbh, and isn’t exactly cut to accentuate the female body shape in obvious ways. Basically, people will always see what they are expecting to see first off, especially in a small village where that is normally what they are seeing.

I don’t see why non-malicious mistakes have to be particularly upsetting for your dd, though? It highlights the biological fact that you can’t both be her biological mother and that a man must have been involved in some way in your dd’s creation, but it doesn’t imply you can’t have a happy, loving family with two mummies bringing you up.

She must look more masculine. Maybe nobody comments when she is alone because they are not asking after the partner or other parent anyway.

There is a family in my youngests year. Not sure if they are married or not but they are lesbians. One mum is very much femme the other although more of a jeans, baggy t and trainers definitely stills looks like a women she even has short hair too and hasn’t been mis gendered or mis sexed on the school run. We all know her as X’s mummy and the femme mum is also X’s mummy or Y’s partner depending on who you are taking too.

Don't think you can do much about other people but for your own mental health you might need to find some coping strategies so it doesn't bother you as much x

I don't think that's true any more @Megalameg Teenagers are very into gender identity. Parents of teenagers know about it. It is much more fashionable and prevalent in general chit chat than boring old homosexuality.