Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

thinking its now time to get super tough on dog ownership?

474 replies

adam7485 · 10/11/2021 05:06

after what has happened in wales to that poor little boy i can't help thinking its time to not jus bring back dog licences but before you buy a dog you should have to take an exam to prove that you can look after it properly. not only that but if your dog attacks someone not only should it be taken away from you but from that moment on your banned from ever owning dogs. anyone agree with me?

OP posts:
Wheresmywoolyjumpers · 11/11/2021 18:40

Not only licenses but mandatory 1 year of weekly training or a bloody good reason why not.

HeartsAndClubs · 11/11/2021 18:47

And who is going to provide all this mandatory training that owners are supposed to have. And how are they going to enforce it.

Let’s be honest here, every death caused by a dog is a tragedy, but is generally down to the owner who does not have proper control of their dog.

And these are the same people who would be allowed to have multiple children with no limitations placed on them. And everyone would agree that there should be no limitations, so to talk about mandatory dog classes and dog ownership classes when they could breed as human beings with no conditions is somewhat disproportionate.

WiddlinDiddlin · 11/11/2021 18:58

@HeartsAndClubs

A dead dog cannot show you behaviour, therefore evidence may be lost by immediately euthanising. In some cases there is no other option as the dog cannot be handled even by an expert, but in many cases, if we had the facilities, it could be taken and assessed first. why? There’s nothing to be achieved by assessing such a dog. Nobody should be responsible for passing a dog who has killed someone on to another home, any home. If they do so then they are equally culpable if the dog goes on to attack someone else.

The dog needs to be euthanised. We don’t need to know why it did what it did. It’s a dog. It’s not some kind of human being who needs to be psychologically assessed.

Most of us agree that a murderer should spend the rest of their life behind bars. But in the case of a murderer, they know why that is. They know what the’ W done. But a dog lives in the here and now. You can’t tell it tomorrow why it’s being punished, it moves on from what it did within seconds. As such you can’t imprison it, and you shouldn’t rehome it, so the only option is to euthanise it.

This particular dog wasn’t even euthanised it was shot. That’s how aggressive it was. We don’t need to see its behaviour after that.

You are incorrect and if you'd like to take it up with the people who do this sort of thing regularly, speak to Jim Crosbie or Kendal Shepherd. Jim in particular could tell you some heartbreaking cases where dogs were set up to bite or blamed for attacks that in fact were covers for child neglect or abuse!

In the US there are repeated examples of live dogs being assessed, at suitable kennelling facilities (no one, NO ONE is talking about taking dogs who have even potentially killed someone, and putting them into peoples homes. I really do not know where you invented that from!), that have provided vital evidence.

In some cases, that behavioural and physical evidence proved they were not the dog (and in a few instances, not even the species!) that killed the person.

Some of those dogs went on to be euthanised, some went on to be rehomed as they had in fact done nothing wrong and a few remained at a shelter designed to permanently house difficult dogs (I don't particularly agree with doing that, I think they'd be better off euthanised too.)

Of course it isn't always possible, sometimes there is no choice but to shoot the dog, however as we do not have such holding facilities in the UK, we have no real option BUT to shoot or euth quickly in almost all cases. That needs to change.

It may be in this case that no one could have safely contained that dog and removed it to a suitable assessment facility, but whilst we do not have access to many folk trained to do so, whilst the polices dog handling work remains in house and they are reluctant to seek outside education (meaning most of their handlers and DLO's are wholly unqualified to do this work) and whilst we don't have the facilities, that will remain a common occurrance.

The more we learn, the more we can understand, the better we can educate, the more we can avoid these events or, accurately hold to account those genuinely to blame for them.

I absolutely hate the idea that there are people out there who were killed by someone else, or neglected/abused by someone, whose deaths have been covered up by alleged, faked, dog attack. It has happened multiple times in the US. I don't see why it wouldn't have happened here, humans are awful on a global scale after all!

XenoBitch · 11/11/2021 18:59

@Staryflight445

I think there should be some sort of test to get a licence for a dog. Like the driving theory test but for responsible pet ownership.

Anyone with a dog should have to pay for it to be professionally trained also, the trainers would be able to weed out the animals that are untrainable/aggressive.

Should also be a lawful requirement for all dogs to be spayed too.

I also think though that to avoid dog thefts/ illegal pet ownership the value of dogs should be made to 0.
It would stop a lot of the designer breeding too.

Win win?

Many dog owners train their own dogs. Why the need for a professional to do it? Dog trainers are not even regulated. It seems like an unnecessary expense, and will price those on low income out of the joys of dog ownership. Plus, what will you do about people who inherit a dog due to a family death?
verymiddleaged · 11/11/2021 19:01

I live somewhere with a dog license it doesn't do anything.
It is just a small add on cost of dog ownership nothing more.

Suzanne999 · 11/11/2021 19:20

By law, in the UK, dogs have to chipped and the chip registered with one of several providers. I suppose it would be possible to extend this to make owners prove the address they give is genuine and pay a licence fee. Licence fee money could go towards funding more dog wardens with large fines for unregistered/ unchipped dogs.
Unfortunately the quality and ability of dog owners is always going to be nigh on impossible to regulate.
Some countries in Europe have rules that apply to certain breeds —- vet examines the dog to ascertain breed ( some dogs were imported as Labrador crosses when they were PitBull types) If deemed a dangerous breed it must be neutered, tattooed as well as chipped and wear a muzzle in public, where it must always be on a lead. Would this work in Britain?

1forAll74 · 11/11/2021 19:24

I come from the days when you had to have a dog licence, But these days, even having a dog licence won't deter some people having a dog, possibly a dangerous breed. Lots of people get a dog, for reasons unknown at times,where they can't be bothered to train the dogs properly, but still let them off leads in parks etc. I have seen quite a few,of what | call yobby type blokes, out with nasty looking dogs, sometimes with muzzles on, and let free in the parks etc.

People can get a dog as they please, but nothing is done about a potentially dangerous one,until it rips someone to pieces.

FOJN · 11/11/2021 19:26

Many dog owners train their own dogs.

All dog owners train their own dogs, except in very rare or unusual circumstances. Dog training in this context is a misnomer and should really be called dog owner training.

The purpose of attending classes is to learn effective techniques for getting the desired behaviour from your dog. I've seen plenty of people who think they know how to train a dog, I was once given awful advice from a police dog handler and trainer, but few actually do.

People often make behavioural problems with their dog worse through amateur attempts at training, they often repeat commands dogs don't don't understand or think dominating techniques will effectively show a dogs its place and it will do as it's told, you can frighten a dog into obedience but it won't stick.

A professional dog trainer will help you avoid those pitfalls, show you how to be effective and make the training fun for you and the dog.

Bignanny30 · 11/11/2021 19:28

People keep going on about dog owners who are not responsible, but dogs are descendant from wild animals and all are unpredictable, even if they are cared for properly. When I was young, a relative had a guide dog - now you can’t tell me that they are not trained properly. But one day, it turned out that the dog was feeling ill, but as my then 7 year old cousin jumped off the sofa the dog must have been startled and bit him just below his eye. You can’t trust any dog. I’d prefer it if people weren’t allowed them as pets at all but as that’s not going to happen then they should be licensed vigorously and muzzled when ever out side. I know this won’t stop all attacks as lots seem to be within people’s own home but if they want to put themselves at risk there’s nothing you can do about that.

pastypirate · 11/11/2021 19:34

@FrangipaniBlue

What’s wrong with a lab, jack russel or a cockapoo!

Are you seriously asking what's wrong with a cocker poo?? How about unregulated breeding, puppy farming and all the health and behaviours issues that come with that FFS 🤦🏽‍♀️

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this
supperlover · 11/11/2021 19:35

We have dog licences in N.ireland. Unfortunately only responsible dog owners bother to get them and nobody checks. I daresay if a dog was caught sheep worrying or attacked someone then the owner would get prosecuted for not having one .

icedcoffees · 11/11/2021 19:37

@Suzanne999

By law, in the UK, dogs have to chipped and the chip registered with one of several providers. I suppose it would be possible to extend this to make owners prove the address they give is genuine and pay a licence fee. Licence fee money could go towards funding more dog wardens with large fines for unregistered/ unchipped dogs. Unfortunately the quality and ability of dog owners is always going to be nigh on impossible to regulate. Some countries in Europe have rules that apply to certain breeds —- vet examines the dog to ascertain breed ( some dogs were imported as Labrador crosses when they were PitBull types) If deemed a dangerous breed it must be neutered, tattooed as well as chipped and wear a muzzle in public, where it must always be on a lead. Would this work in Britain?
But what you describe IS already the law in Britain.

Right now, anyone can legally own a pitbull/pitbull-type as long as it's deemed to be of sound temperament and as long as it's neutered, leashed and muzzled in public.

However, as most dangerous dog attacks occur on private property, any lead and muzzle restrictions are largely irrelevant. Police can't tell you that you have to muzzle your dog in its' own home.

Trixiefirecracker · 11/11/2021 19:38

I think this is correct @Bignanny30 all dogs can be unpredictable and have the propensity to bite or attack given the wrong circumstances so it seems remiss that there aren’t tighter laws regarding owning what is potentially quite a lethal weapon. My parents owned the sweetest dog ever until it developed a lesion on its brain and almost overnight turned in to a nightmare snappy dog. Obviously it was in pain but this was not picked up until later, it bit a couple of people though, before they discovered the problem. I totally think there needs to be stricter laws, dogs do have the potential to harm and the vast majority of owners these days seem incapable of basic training, it has become a huge problem since lockdown I think. Lots of entitled idiots buying puppies they can’t be arsed to train. I live rurally and the amount of sheep attacks are ridiculous, most owners don’t even realise you should have your dogs on leads around livestock.

FOJN · 11/11/2021 19:42

But one day, it turned out that the dog was feeling ill, but as my then 7 year old cousin jumped off the sofa the dog must have been startled and bit him just below his eye.

An unwell dog reacting to boisterous children is entirely predictable, the dog should have been moved to a place where it could rest in peace or the children should not have been around it. The adults in that situation are entirely to blame.

I think someone posted a link on this thread which describes the ladder of aggression in dogs. They give off lots of signals they are not happy before they bite. The early signals are the dog politely saying could you please leave me alone. A bite is the dog screaming I've asked you nicely ten times, now please fuck off and give me some space.

Trixiefirecracker · 11/11/2021 19:47

@FOJN this isn’t always strictly true sadly. Some dogs don’t give off any signals snd they hide pain well so you have to actually know they are ill before you get a chance to move it out of harms way.

nopuppiesallowed · 11/11/2021 19:53

I think that there were dog licences in the UK many years ago. My parents usually had a dog and always bought a license but many people didn't buy them and purchase was too difficult to monitor. As an adult I had a gentle and reliable golden retriever and a wonderful, dog knowledgeable friend who gave me lots of advice. We also bought a fantastic book called 'How to Have the Perfect Puppy'. Yet I would never have left our docile, well trained dog in a room with a child or off the lead near children. Dogs are animals. When well trained they are usually reliable, but you can never predict their behaviour. And as for the larger, aggressive breeds....the ones whose owners insist how gentle they are? No. Don't buy one. Please.

FOJN · 11/11/2021 20:09

Some dogs don’t give off any signals snd they hide pain well so you have to actually know they are ill before you get a chance to move it out of harms way.

Some dogs don’t appear to give off any signals snd they hide pain well so you have to actually know they are ill before you get a chance to move it out of harms way.

I understand your point in the context of the example you've given. A friend had two dogs who lived together for 7 years without any trouble but one day one of the dogs turned on the other, completely out of the blue, and killed it. It also had a brain lesion.

However, that is not the reason most dogs bite and children should never be left unsupervised with any dog. Owners should learn to "read" their dogs and respect the signals they give. There is a canine/human language barrier so given the risk of potential harm we should always err on the side of caution if we are in any doubt about a dogs comfort level.

Bignanny30 · 11/11/2021 20:11

@FOJN this well trained gentle guide dog that my uncle had was showing no signs of pain. They only found out she was unwell after she bit the child. And that’s the point I was making as @wantanotherdog said and agreed with me on - dogs are animals and unpredictable.

Morgysmum · 11/11/2021 20:27

I believe its always the owners fault. They buy these dogs, don't bother training them or giving them enough walks, because they are busy work and then wonder why the dog fips out.
Yes all dogs are capable of attacking people, but if trained properly and looked after, even so called dangerous dogs are fine, I friend of mine has 3 or 4 staffy type dogs, all fine and being raised around kids. She is very responsible owner, who treats her dogs like family as her son, is now at college. She would be devastated if, her dogs were removed, just because they look like a breed that has attacked before.
More needs to be done, to educated owners on, you cannot buy a dog because it looks nice, you are bored and want one in lockdown.,or worse your kid wants one.
My son would love a dog, but because myself and my partner work, it wouldn't be fair on the dog, to be stuck in the house, on its own for hours even small dogs need exercise. Yes, my son says he would walk it, but really on a cold and dark rainy night (I doubt it) so if you cannot then don't get a dog, it's not fair on them.

Dogmummy999 · 11/11/2021 20:32

Dog ownership should not be licenced. If you want to prevent dog attacks ppl need to stop breeding dangerous dogs. It's the same as if you don't want your kid knifed on the streets by other kids. Ppl need to start breeding better kids. We are not going to put licences for reproducing the human race although they are infinitely more dangerous than dogs as a species. Hardly any dogs kill humans but those that do are usually a dangerous breed and owned by humans who are dangerous too. And therefore want a dangerous dog. Lots of humans kill humans. And we can't do anything about it till the damage is done. Fortunately not many dog attacks kill humans. And talking about training dogs not to attack humans. How about the police stop setting a bad example by using dogs as weapons?!?!

Bythemillpond · 11/11/2021 20:35

the problem though is that too many people buy staffies because they look hard. So while yours might be a lovely family pet people do buy them as status symbols and for fighting and prime them to be aggressive

But looking “hard” doesn’t equal aggression
It is the owner who is doing the training and in the wrong hands any dog can be a killer if that is what the owner wants.

Raised with love and properly trained then the Staffie is a lovely breed
Why should we get rid of a breed of dog just because some t**t with an inferiority complex about the size of his dick wants to make himself look scary.

trumpisagit · 11/11/2021 20:38

Because Staffies, as well as the bigger bull breeds kill people.
I think the number of deaths by dog attack would be much lower without bull breeds.
Why do you need a dog strong enough to kill someone in your house?

antsinyourpanta · 11/11/2021 20:40

I agree in principle but I think like pp have said it would be almost unenforceable.
How are they going to police all the backyard breeders and Facebook sellers?
Since I was a kid I've seen notices on lamp posts warning of fines for letting your dog foul the pavement. Can't imagine how or when these fines ever happen...? (And they would arguably be easier to issue than knowing who owned a dog, what breed it was and where they lived)
I'm not saying something shouldn't be done , and it happens time and time again, but I'm unsure how this can be regulated...? Certain breeds are banned but that doesn't seem to make any difference. Sad

Creamcrackersandricecakes · 11/11/2021 20:40

That Facebook page, 'XL Bully Posts uk', is an absolute disgrace. Blatant trading of dogs and puppies with hundreds of replies on every post. Photos of dogs with cropped ears, (isn't that supposed to be illegal??). 11,000 members Shock. I've reported it numerous times and Facebook do nothing. I guess they're too busy handing down 7 days bans for misgendering or showing a tiny glimpse of nipple or something. Useless AngryAngryAngry

Owl55 · 11/11/2021 20:46

Stop the breeding of dogs , I know of someone who breeds French bulldogs to sell , yes the dogs are well cared for but it’s a money making venture only!

Swipe left for the next trending thread