thinking its now time to get super tough on dog ownership?

[adam7485]

after what has happened in wales to that poor little boy i can't help thinking its time to not jus bring back dog licences but before you buy a dog you should have to take an exam to prove that you can look after it properly. not only that but if your dog attacks someone not only should it be taken away from you but from that moment on your banned from ever owning dogs. anyone agree with me?

Ok you have to think logistically

How would this be enforced?

You would need an IT system and input (such as the PNC but access to this is with the police)

How would the police have time to check?
Both at scene and when the person is made to produce the document?

You would need far more officers and enquiry officers within stations.

Then how would it be enforced?
Court? Massively under funded and waiting times are huge
Fine? The payment system would need more funding to handle the influx of new fines

Then there's the whole tracking the person down to prove their identity- people do not have to take ID in public, they have a dangerous dog, you stop them, they refuse details, how do you handle that? Arrest them take the dog- where does the dog go? How is it transported? Where is the officer safety?

I think it would benefit society much more if we were super tough on child ownership.

PTS healthy dogs for being born after an arbitrary date is not something I'd like to see, but I think it would be the only real deterrent for breeders and purchasers in the end. Anything that is banned or resembles a banned breed would become a risky purchase and emotional risk. We will never prevent all deaths or bites, but we could stop most deaths and prevent the worst injuries.

I agree with you. Banning bull breeds and bull crosses would make streets, homes and parks much safer. And that includes a ban on SBT (staffies) because many illegal pitbulls are passed off as staffie crosses or even have fake papers. Dog fighting is illegal but still a big (hidden) industry. Fighting dogs and their offspring sell for thousands, massive amounts of money changes hands via betting on fights. Many dogs are shipped from abroad so they need false papers and forged passports.

Even the gentle purebred staffie is capable of doing serious damage with a single bite. The massive muscular jaw, bite force and tendency to hang on (instead of releasing like most breeds) are traits bred into the staffie. The breed was developed for bull baiting, where it had to pin a bull’s nose to the ground and hold it there to win. Then it was used for fighting dogs once bull baiting was outlawed.

When the SBT went to America it was cross bred to develop the pitbull (American bulldog) the one that’s banned here due to its aggressive tendencies and attacks on small children. The pitbull is bigger, stronger, more muscular and therefore won more fights. They’re still a status symbol in some places (favoured by drug dealers, gang members, people trying to look ‘hard’).

I’m sure lots of people will say their staffie is definitely a real staffie, or staffie cross with no pitbull blood, or the sweetest softest dog imaginable, or a wonderful ‘nanny’ dog with their kids. I’m sure there are some lovely bull breed types out there, but there are too many who have mauled or killed people, often rescues who were wonderful family pets… until the day they went for the toddler.

Staffie types also have a bad track record for attacking other dogs (which isn’t surprising given the breed was developed to kill dogs). Even if your rescue has no history of being trained to fight, there’s a risk it hasn’t been properly socialised with dogs and children, and if it goes off the handle it’s physical make up and bite power gives it the ability to inflict horrific damage.

There’s just no need to own bull breeds at all.

I'm very concerned about the rise in popularity of the cain corso

I agree, it looks like it's becoming the new "hard man" dog and worryingly it has a much stronger bite strength than any of the bull breeds who actually rate fairly low in the bite strength ratings. I think we need to stop thinking the issue is breed specific.

The statistics show bull breeds are responsible for the majority of fatalities but it has less to do with the breed and everything to do with the type of people who own them. If you abuse a dog it will become fearful of humans and aggressive. We need to take a tougher stance on animal abuse and neglect because there are other dogs out there capable of being much more dangerous than any bull breed if they fall into the hands of the wrong sort of people.

Side note: staffies are the dog of choice for lots of retired people in my local area, they are loved and well cared for and a delight to meet, absolutely high on life and love people.The English bull terrier seems to be owned by the arseholes who have no business owning a dog.

@Binxthecat, so not moved by the fatality stats, then? I can't find a source other than Wiki, unfortunately, but I've seen enough photos of dogs which have seriously mauled or killed people to have a pretty clear idea of the breed types they represent: predominant the bull breeds, then rotties, GSDs and terriers.

I don't know what the answer is. Licencing that is actually enforced - that you have to carry your licence when you walk your dog, with the fees being used to run a decent system of dog wardens?

i never said it would be totally fool proof but if you reported a dog that looks dangerously out of control and have an idea which address it is from then the police then should have the power to do a door to door search in the area and if they find the dog they can demand to see its papers and your licence agreement. owners refuse then its simple. either the dog will be taken away and you will have to face court charges at a later date for having an out of control dog. or arrested on the spot if your particularly being obstructive. yes its draconian and would take a lot of time and resources but rather draconian restrictions than the next kid to have there face torn to shreads is my dc..

@IReallyCan

In my class of 22 children, six are in the process of rehoming their lockdown dogs.

What is the matter with people?

They get bored. And dogs arent as cute as puppies.

@adam7485

i never said it would be totally fool proof but if you reported a dog that looks dangerously out of control and have an idea which address it is from then the police then should have the power to do a door to door search in the area and if they find the dog they can demand to see its papers and your licence agreement. owners refuse then its simple. either the dog will be taken away and you will have to face court charges at a later date for having an out of control dog. or arrested on the spot if your particularly being obstructive. yes its draconian and would take a lot of time and resources but rather draconian restrictions than the next kid to have there face torn to shreads is my dc..

The police are never going to allowed to force their way into private houses based on a person's opinion that someone in the area may have a dog dangerously out of control.

You can actually report a dog dangerously out of control now.

But they would require proof. The police won't sieze dogs, which are classed as property, based on Susan down the road not liking the look of a dog. What do what them to do? Sieze the dog and see if they can goad it into being aggressive?

@Chloemol

No, and I say that as a dog owner.

Like anything the great majority of dog owners are very responsible about their pets, spoilt by a minority like everything

I would accept licensing if the same applied to cat owners

When was the last fatal cat mauling?

When was the last time a strange cat ran up and jumped at you in a park?

I don't really like cats, but it is ridiculous to compare cars and dogs in terms of the annoyance to humans, and risk of injury to humans.

compare cats and dogs that should say

I’m not sure why people come on these threads and start trying to derail them with idiotic comments about comparing cats to dogs or that we should be ‘tough on child ownership’. Firstly you don’t ‘own a child’, nobody owns another person unless you are slave trafficking. Secondly if you have an issue with these things, start your own thread. I’m pretty sure it’s just disgruntled dog owners who don’t what to be called out or are feeling defensive about their dog or breed, and are trying to deflect the issue but it’s really not helping the discussion.

Gumtree ads for the likes of "Bully XL" (breed name says it all) are eye openers. Wildly expensive and looking like they are very much in demand. Adult dogs being sold more cheaply presumably due to aggression. They're terrifying looking and definitely look like the status dog for wannabee hard men. If I saw one of these in the street I would have a panic attack!

No pets or animals should be profiteered from.

But they would require proof. The police won't sieze dogs, which are classed as property, based on Susan down the road not liking the look of a dog. What do what them to do? Sieze the dog

If all bull breeds and bull crosses were banned, it would be illegal to breed them and they’d die out in a decade or so. Then yes, police could seize dogs resembling bull breeds. It happens now; my old neighbours had a staffie-cross that was dog aggressive. One day it growled at a guide dog (both on leads) but the owner of guide dog called the police and the police seized the staffie cross the same evening, then had it PTS. They made the owners sign paperwork agreeing to having it destroyed under the dangerous dogs act, with the other option being they’d have to go to court to get the dog back (and pay the court fees).

If all dogs (all breeds) had to be microchipped, insured and walked on a lead (other than private land secure or dog parks) it would be easy to spot and report off lead dogs. You can discreetly take a photo of a dog and owner while pretending to photograph the sky, a tree or take a selfie, or just look at your phone! People have their phones out a lot these days.

People around here ‘name and shame’ owners of out of control dogs on social media, eg a photo and ‘does anyone recognise this man? His dog attacked mine in X park at X time’. Partly to warn other dogs owners I guess. Sometimes it’s just a description.

A hefty fine for letting your dog off in public would deter many irresponsible owners. Someone will report or photograph you, whether it’s a fellow dog walker or someone looking out their window. And I think many people would be quick to report neighbours breeding banned breeds (or buying them after a ban).

I hate walking through the park with my on lead dog (who isn’t keen on other dogs) and fending off all the bouncy bad mannered dogs who have no recall. He’s been attacked twice, both times by a bull breed/staffie cross. So he’s very reactive to bull breeds now.

@Peacocking I just think if that happens, the people who own the dogs who are doing this, will move onto another breed.

So they can't have a bull breed to look tough, they will choose a rottie, or a dobie. Mistreat it, not train it etc and then they will become the next demonised dogs.

Let's be honest, it's not law abiding, sensible people's bull breeds killing kids is it.

I just don’t see the need for these aggressive dogs - dogs of a breed known to be more dangerous than others - to be in our public spaces. If you want a dog get a spaniel, or a whippet. Why would you ever get something more likely to attack someone?

Before we even start to think about new laws/licences etc., we need to work backwards from how it can be properly enforced.

We have too many laws/rules that are basically only abided by, by normal/decent people who follow all laws/rules. As with litter, driving, drugs, alcohol, etc., there is a growing minority who simply do what the hell they want, and the police/LA etc basically ignore it.

@knackeredcat

Gumtree ads for the likes of "Bully XL" (breed name says it all) are eye openers. Wildly expensive and looking like they are very much in demand. Adult dogs being sold more cheaply presumably due to aggression. They're terrifying looking and definitely look like the status dog for wannabee hard men. If I saw one of these in the street I would have a panic attack!

No pets or animals should be profiteered from.

The “XL Bully” community on social media is grim. The poor dogs look deformed (as well as absolutely terrifying).

*@Peacocking I just think if that happens, the people who own the dogs who are doing this, will move onto another breed.

So they can't have a bull breed to look tough, they will choose a rottie, or a dobie. Mistreat it, not train it etc and then they will become the next demonised dogs.

Let's be honest, it's not law abiding, sensible people's bull breeds killing kids is it.*

I do agree with this but I don't honestly know what the answer is.

I see that the dog was sold on FB just days before that poor lad was killed. All the groups I'm on are really strict about anything even resembling the sale of animals. I got a nasty shock when with a few clicks I found the XL BULLY Public group. I couldn't believe my eyes. Blatant advertising. Take a look for yourselves.

My parents successfully breed and show Shetland Sheepdogs and have done since the 60's. They religiously health test and adhere to every rule and regulation out there. They only ever breed to continue their lines (once every three or so years), are very successful in the show ring and put everything in to their dogs. They are licenced even though they don't even meet the current requirements to need a licence. They don't advertise their puppies on FB etc, they don't need to advertise them full stop. They will be the ones that will bow to yet further legislation, not the people that need targeting. People like the members of that group who own the latest fad.

My parents are decent, sensible law abiding people and will always be just that. Sensible and law abiding. They also have driving licences, don't drink drive, speed or drive uninsured.

My point is, you can legislate for bloody idiots. Bringing in some of things I've seen mentioned on this thread isn't going to give bastards like the one that sold that vile dog on FB, a brain. From news reports I've read, he is quoted as saying , it was no longer owned by him when it killed that poor little boy. I.e it was nothing to do with him. He is very responsible for that boy's death but is such a moron, he doesn't think he is. Unless someone has some magical way of deleting morons from the world , I don't know what the answer is.

You can't legislate for bloody idiots, that should read!!!

If all bull breeds and bull crosses were banned, it would be illegal to breed them and they’d die out in a decade or so.

I think you are missing the point some of us are trying to make. Bull breeds have been the "hard man's" dog, these people do not treat them well either through neglect or abuse and in some cases actually training them to be aggressive. They are over represented in dog attack fatality statistics for this reason. You could ban them and feel better but the kinds of people who make dogs aggressive will still exist and will just choose another breed as a thug mascot, some of those breed are even more powerful and dangerous than bull breeds and could easily kill a large adult if they decided to.

I agree police should have more powers to seize out of control dogs but I can't see you getting any support for police seizing dogs just for being off lead. You would get compliance from responsible dog owners but bad dog owners will continue just as before.

If all dogs (all breeds) had to be microchipped

This makes me wonder how much you actually know about dogs. It has been a legal requirement (in the UK) for all dogs to be microchipped since April 2016. There is also other legislation which mandates all sorts of things from how dogs are secured in cars to the specifics of what MUST appear on dog tags and yet many dog owners seem unaware or don't comply because there are no resources for enforcement.

It is is clear that the current law banning pit bull types isnt working when you can see such a thriving population of pitbull types being owned and bred blatantly in this country. Their owners and breeders deeming themselves completely exempt from any legislation (or commonsense and decency it seems) whilst most other dog owner/breeders continue to bend over backwards to be responsible.

Other than banning an awful lot more dog breeds to cover any possibility of cross breeding to produce some new fangled bull thing, what can be done?

I also think sentences for people who have dogs that kill should be far higher.

Absolutely, I was horrified reading the wiki list of dog fatalities that many of these appallingly irresponsible owners were given time limited bans on owning a dog. If you own a dog that kills or seriously injures you should serve a prison sentence and never be allowed to own another animal.

@adam7485

i never said it would be totally fool proof but if you reported a dog that looks dangerously out of control and have an idea which address it is from then the police then should have the power to do a door to door search in the area and if they find the dog they can demand to see its papers and your licence agreement. owners refuse then its simple. either the dog will be taken away and you will have to face court charges at a later date for having an out of control dog. or arrested on the spot if your particularly being obstructive. yes its draconian and would take a lot of time and resources but rather draconian restrictions than the next kid to have there face torn to shreads is my dc..

Utterly unworkable.

I did have a look on FB at XL Bully

You’re right. Blatant selling.

If all bull breeds and bull crosses were banned, it would be illegal to breed them and they’d die out in a decade or so

I don’t think it is the breed of dog that is the problem but the owner.

Staffies have got a bad reputation because of the way they look and people thinking they make them look hard by owning one.

My ddog was a mixture of staffy, Labrador and Alsatian

She was the most docile sweetest and kindest dog you could ever meet
On meeting one little puppy who was scared on his first walk out she put him at his ease and within about 15 minutes he was bouncing around playing and really loving the new aspect to his life walks were.

One of the only times I have seen a dog attack it was by a Cockapoo who was on a lead but managed to almost pull the owner over who accidentally let go of the lead and it charged over to a small KCS who was on a lead being walked 100m away. Fortunately a few of us ran over and managed to get the KCS out of the mouth of the Cockapoo before too much damage was done,

It isn’t just bully breeds that are the problem

All dogs can be a problem if they aren’t raised properly. A bit like people.
You treat a child with unkindness, violence and aggression and the likelihood they are going to grow up acting the same.

If anything I think all owners/potential owners need to do a course on how to raise a puppy/dog