Or is DH - Works on leasehold property

[MrsWarleggan]

So, DH and I have just purchased our first home. It's a leasehold flat. We knew from our lease that we would have to ask for permission to do a full re-wire on the place. In our complete and total naivety we assumed (wrongly as it now transpires) that as the works are essential due to safety issues with the existing electrics that we could do the work and then request retrospective approval. There is absolutely no way that they can refuse as the current fuse board hasn't been replaced since the 60's and there are wires hanging out of holes drilled through walls!

We have all the paperwork but as we are not legal owners until we complete on the 12th they can't entertain a request and won't be able to until deeds are transferred which can take up to a month after completion despite then being the legal owners!!

It now looks as though we can't request retrospective approval. The application form has a "retrospective approval" section asking for dates work completed and requests copies of the electrical sign off by the electrician etc. For what it's worth he is NICEIC registered and has his indemnity insurances which would provide proof off...... However in the next breath they say in their guidance notes any works completed prior to approval would put us in breach of our lease....... So here in turn is my question.

DH is incredibly and understandably frustrated. We have 2 weeks between completion and having to be out of our rental and just wants to get the work done. He is somewhat blinded by the need/desire to get the work done before we move in.

After going through the paperwork I am convinced we will have to delay a couple of months. Live in the danger zone property with two small children and await the approval then move in to parents when work goes on.

DH is adamant he wants to continue. I don't want to spend the first 6 months of homeownership waiting for a knock on the door due to unauthorised works.

We KNOW we needed permission and exchanged contracts based on this. However, it wasnt until we exchanged and submitted our works request that we were told we couldn't do anything until we were the legal owners. Even a solicitors letter to them did nothing and the current owners (probate) refused to put the request in on our behalf (approval would be transferred) despite doing all the actual paperwork.

Has anyone had any experience of this and do I need to tell my DH to get over himself and the work will get done when we can?

Sorry for the long post.... 24 hours of pure frustration typed out on a phone!!!

Any action for essential works done safely would fail. A court will not enforce a clause that is unreasonable, and a clause that delays or prohibits vital works is unreasonable

The clause itself is not unreasonable and is standard on leases. The court is unlikely to allow forfeiture in this case, but that’s not the point as OP could get herself in legal hassle with the freeholder and the mortgage company nonetheless.

No one gets permission for internal works.

Whether that is reasonable depends on the terms of the lease.

If a lease states no internal works should be carried out without consent then you’re in breach of the lease whether or not freeholder/managing agent is aware.

When you come to sell the buyer’s solicitor will look for lease breaches and you will be required to resolve them before sale - otherwise the buyer may be liable to fix it.

This doesn’t apply to the OP as she will be looking to get retrospective consent ASAP - but that could be expensive.

What @CorrBlimeyGG said

Leasehold is a money spinner full stop. I sold a leasehold flat and had to pay £300 to the managing agent as an admin fee so that they could send an email to the solicitors confirming that I was up to date on my charges and didn't owe any ground rent

I would go ahead with the work. When you notify the freeholder (after the fact) send a short covering email to them stating that your electrician advised that the state of the wiring was dangerous, and required immediate rectification to remove a fire risk. Nothing more required - don't send war and peace, don't feel like you have to get into lengthy explanations and send pictures, because they won't care. All that's needed alongside the covering paperwork and NIEIC cert is a warning to them that it was a danger that needed to be sorted as a priority.

@CorrBlimeyGG

Unauthorised works can put you in breach of a covenant of the lease, which can allow the freeholder to start legal action to forfeit the lease and gain possession of your flat.

Any action for essential works done safely would fail. A court will not enforce a clause that is unreasonable, and a clause that delays or prohibits vital works is unreasonable.

Get on with the work OP. I've had a leasehold for nearly twenty years, and I've learned that you engage with the freeholder/ management company as little as possible. No one gets permission for internal works.

Agree. As long as you aren't taking the piss knocking down walls, keep quiet.

Agree that people don’t commonly get permission, from any freeholder.

But as you’ve already asked them, they now know. So plausible deniability is not an option

You’ve done more than most leaseholders in that you’ve read your lease! Very worth it to know what the rules are in there.

Useful advice from CorBlimey on whether court action would actually happen.

I would definitely just put the permission in when you complete and then just start work anyway.

If they say anything just claim the electrics weren't working at all when you moved in and the emergency electrician had to start remedial works immediately to make it safe.

As PPs have said, there are lease breaches going on left, right and centre in most blocks. I'm sure if you look carefully there will be loads of flats with pets that shouldn't have them, wooden flooring when they shouldn't, etc.

Plus, with the freeholder being a local authority I'd suggest they wouldn't give too hoots either. They won't inspect it before or after the works either - they've already admitted they don't.

Re the noise, just drop a note in your neighbours' doors apologising in advance but point out how dangerous the electrics are and the urgency of replacing them to avoid a potential fire. If they want to complain to the freeholder about reasonable works to make a property safe, let them crack on!

@HopeHappy

I would definitely just put the permission in when you complete and then just start work anyway.

If they say anything just claim the electrics weren't working at all when you moved in and the emergency electrician had to start remedial works immediately to make it safe.

As PPs have said, there are lease breaches going on left, right and centre in most blocks. I'm sure if you look carefully there will be loads of flats with pets that shouldn't have them, wooden flooring when they shouldn't, etc.

Plus, with the freeholder being a local authority I'd suggest they wouldn't give too hoots either. They won't inspect it before or after the works either - they've already admitted they don't.

Re the noise, just drop a note in your neighbours' doors apologising in advance but point out how dangerous the electrics are and the urgency of replacing them to avoid a potential fire. If they want to complain to the freeholder about reasonable works to make a property safe, let them crack on!

^this.

Just do the work the minute you get the keys. I’m sure the leaseholders would much rather that than the whole building burn down!

Hoping this helps make things clearer. The lease clearly states we would need permission. In first screenshot it says that we are responsible for for maintaing, repairing and replacing if necessary cables and wires "to the lessors satisfaction"

It then states further down that "without the previous written consent" in terms of pets.

The second screenahot states written application should be made in terms of the foregoing clauses ie the works. It doesn't say prior written consent must be given before we complete the works. Just that we have to apply for permission.... Either before or retrospectively......

Or maybe I'm just trying looking for a technicality or reading it how I want to read it/interperate!

Suggest you ask your solicitor to interpret it for you - that's their job!

HNRTT but depending on jurisdiction, have you asked the freeholder for a hold harmless confirmation based on a statement you will submit a formal request but for safety reasons want to initiate the work as soon as you occupy and have young children? If they are willing then it might give the assurance you need and allow your DP to commence work immediately on taking possession?

Good luck.

She did. She's been aware of what we want to do as we put forward and access of undertaking which was denied right at the very start. In her property report she said we may have to ask for permission (confirmed via lease of course) but then said we should contact the freeholder directly, which we did.

Freeholder: Yes you do need permission, here's the application form, don't do any works prior to receiving the licence. Don't engage with any contractors. Oh but there is a part of the application where you could do the works and ask for permission afterwards, just make sure you send us the completion certificate and photos... Ooh but don't do it like that as you will be in breach of your lease"

It's about as clear as Boris Johnsons concious!

@Zilla1

We asked, they refused to even speak to me because I couldn't pass the security questions. Even with a letter from my solicitors 😔

Sorry to hear that, OP. Hope it works out.

Your first lesson in leasehold ownership - never, ever, ever contact the freeholder unless there’s literally no other choice. So what if your new neighbours had heard a week of noise after completion? If you don’t let them in then once it’s done there’s no proof of anything. My old lease had a clause that I would be in breach if I didn’t have all the windows in my top floor flat externally cleaned every 30 days!

Reader, by that standard all eighty flats in the block were in permanent breach of their lease…

I’d do the electrics without permission and apply for it retrospectively on safety grounds…

But you can’t change the ceiling height as part of that. You will absolutely need permission for that, it will count as a major change, and if they’re anything like ours; they’ll follow the guidance to the letter and want a surveyor report about the risks of ceiling changes and how it could affect upstairs.

Is it an option to split the works and do the urgent safety works now, and the rest once you’ve got permission?

To be honest, we’d have applied for permission for our buyer to do this - I’d be a bit worried that your seller wouldn’t. It suggests they know that there’s going to be issues… have you already exchanged? If not, I’d make that a condition of exchange. Not that they get permission, but that they at least start the process off for you.

@TakeYourFinalPosition

But as far as the freeholder is concerned the electrics are classed as a major change too. The ceiling is reinforced concrete which would mean drilling through it to get to the existing cable work. It will be 2mm joists and a suspended plaster board ceiling.

@TakeYourFinalPosition

Also the sellers didn't live there. They are executors. Its a probate sale and it's been empty since February when it went on the marke

@MrsWarleggan They own it, though - even as executors - so it would have been standard and pretty easy for them to request permission for works, and then that approval could have passed to you (presuming your lease allows that).

I think the electrics you'd get away with despite them classing it as "major works" for safety reasons; but you won't be able to argue that drilling a concrete ceiling isn't notifiable to the freeholder - they have a duty of care to the other leaseholders - so that muddies the waters substantially. Essentially they'd have the same defence as you - safety.

It might be worth trying the freeholder again?

It's tough, because some freeholders have crazy clauses but never enforce them; and you'd be fine. But some don't, and you'd be in breach of your lease, which means legally it's a pretty open-and-shut case - especially as they can prove that they told you of the requirement beforehand, and therefore you can't argue that you had no idea that you needed consent to go ahead. It'd be slightly less risky, legally speaking, if you'd never contacted them from that regard.

Has your solicitor advised you on their legal opinion on proceeding?

I really feel for you. Our first buyer wanted to re-do the electrics here as he intends to let it out - he sent us the details of what he wanted to do, we passed them to the freeholder, it was pretty easy. Sadly he couldn't get a mortgage offer so it didn't matter in the end, and our freeholder is pretty reasonable, but they are hot on compliance and they'd have kicked off if he'd done it without permission; so we helped try to get that for him. We also had a viewer who wanted us to ask permission for her to keep a cat here, but in the end we didn't accept her offer, so we didn't have to do it... but it is a standard thing to do.

If you google the freeholder, does anything come up about other people's dealings with them? You could maybe try and find an actual person there to contact individually and see if they can help with your case?

@CendrillonSings

Your first lesson in leasehold ownership - never, ever, ever contact the freeholder unless there’s literally no other choice. So what if your new neighbours had heard a week of noise after completion? If you don’t let them in then once it’s done there’s no proof of anything. My old lease had a clause that I would be in breach if I didn’t have all the windows in my top floor flat externally cleaned every 30 days!

Reader, by that standard all eighty flats in the block were in permanent breach of their lease…

Agreed, going forward adopt this approach!!

It’s a bloody tricky one. I think considering they’ve said do not engage contractors etc, and adding the concrete ceiling situation, you’re going to have to wait until you’ve got permission.

Ugh. Leasehold is shit sometimes. But mostly it is fine!

We popped down there today just to have a measure up, as we are so close to completion current owners just let us have the keys and met our downstairs neighbour. Really lovely lady. I said we were her new neighbours and she was really happy and excited for us. We mentioned that we would be doing electrics at some point and we apologise for any noise or disruption. She said no need to apologise at all and that they only had there's done earlier on in the year and knows what a pain it can be. She told me all about out the other neighbours, ones above us are sub-letting from their mum/in law 🤔. DH went up and knocked on their door after I left and introduced himself. She was very friendly and was excited about another family moving in. He mentioned the proposed works and apologised for the noise and her response was "I have two kids, they will drown it out" another one has 3 greyhounds and the other two are young families. All privately owned. She asked for my mobile number so she can add me to the leaseholders WhatsApp group. 😊

DH still adamant he wants to carry on with the works. I'm trying to get the legal ramifications across but must admit I am wavering. He spoke to the electrician we want and he said he's more than happy to write a covering letter to send off with a retrospective approval application detailing the appalling set up as it stands and that putting a floating ceiling is was the easiest and least invasive course of action as opposed to hacking away at the existing ceiling.

I just don't know!!!!

Your DH is being very stupid. To put in a new ceiling - that has to be signed off before you start. If the freeholder doesn’t like what you’ve done, or even just make an example of you, they could make you rip down the ceilings and redo.

You are going to get yourself in legal trouble which could end up being very costly. Can you really afford that?

@TatianaBis

I know. I am so stressed out about it. His desire to get the job done whilst it is empty is completely blinding his better judgement.

I just don't know what to do. I just can't get through to him the seriousness of it and possible outcomes.

He is just assuming that we will do the work, they will be happy with it, grant retrospective approval and all will be well. 😔