To despise being called ‘cis’?

[Ostryga]

I’m not ‘cis’. I’m not ‘cisgendered’. I’m literally a woman. I’ve just read a guardian article that calls women seeking IVF cisgendered.

Why????

@Witchcraftandhokum

Trans - from the Latin for opposite of.

Cis - from the Latin for same as.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Opposite of what? Same as what?

A woman? A man? What is the opposite of a woman or a man? A woman or a man

So what’s the need for cis??

The term cis is a Latin prefix meaning 'on this side of' and has only (erroneously) been used as an antonym for 'trans' since around 1994. In scientific research, the term cis is used (i believe) to refer to chemical bonds but in terms of gender, it's made up nonsense.

Either way, it's outrageously hypocritical to enforce compliance of 'preferred pronouns' while insisting that women are forced to refer to themselves by a term with which they do not identify or agree with.

@TheKeatingFive

I identify as a woman and I haven't really ever had to put much thought into why.

Well that's telling

In what way if you don't mind me asking?

On some online form this week I was asked to choose between female, trans female and cis female.

I chose female.

I would have been pissed off it that hadn't been an option.

@foxgoosefinch

I am a person with a womb. I am also female. A woman. A ciswoman. I feed from my breast, which is a part of my chest.

Do you know that sounds very much like the kinds of things the Romans used to call enslaved women in the Classical world. “A ciswoman”. Delightful. You do know that your breast is a completely separate organ to your chest, not part of it?

Is the chest an organ? I consider it a part of my body, a region upon which resides my breast and within which resides my heart, lungs and so on.

@ScrollingLeaves

‘As far as I know’ doesn’t make it fact. Black swan fallacy and all that.

Yes, I would agree that most often hetero refers to opposite sex attracted, but some definitions have it as opposite gender attracted, so it’s helpful to clarify. It used to mean deviantly attracted to the opposite sex a hundred odd years ago. Definitions change.

Do you mean that by saying ‘cisgendered heterosexual’ it clarifies that the couple is not made up of a trans man and a trans woman ( I.e. a biological woman and a biological man ) who don’t want to be called heterosexual because that would upset their sense of identity?

I’m not saying anything about their sense of identity, I’m saying that using the word ‘cisgendered’ is a clarification in this instance. It clarifies that it refers to a couple made up of a bio man and bio woman, rather than a hetero relationship between two people who identify as a man & woman (but may have been born differently).

Trans women do exist. They are indeed a subset of women.

Trans women do exist. But they are a subset of men. They are men who want, imagine themselves to be, or live in the sex roles of, women.

Unless you believe in it as a religious ideology, there is no such thing as a gendered soul that is somehow living within the body as the opposite sex to the body itself. There is zero material evidence of the existence of an opposite-gendered soul, or any soul. It is a belief, not a material fact. People are and live in their bodies as part of the material world.

Some people want to be the opposite sex to the one they are born as. That’s fine. But they aren’t the other sex; and hormones and surgery don’t change them into it. We all know this; and most people are very happy to allow for a legal and social fiction that transwomen can “live as” women, and trans men can “live as” men, and support them in doing so.

We don’t want to be told, however, that reality is not reality, via made up terms that pretend things aren’t as they are; or language changes that pretend something is true when it’s not. That’s ideology and religion - compelled belief - and not compatible with a progressive, democratic, secular, rights-based society.

Zotter

I'd suggest the partner (? wife, not sure if they're married yet) of a transman may be a bit biased.

@Booklover2021 you seem to be saying that a women is anyone who identifies as a women? Is that what you are saying? If not, then how would you personally actually define woman?

cis - same as

Same as what?

I don't agree I have a gender identity at all. I don't choose this language, I don't wish to participate in what is a political position. Identify yourself however you want. If you want me to be politely accepting of that and not push my unwanted language or definitions on you then please extend me the same courtesy. Live and let live.

ostryga

Cis - your gender being the same as your sex

Trans - your gender being opposite of your sex

I can't get worked up about it.

Well that's telling

That you said you hadn't thought about it very much.

What would indicate to you that you weren't identifying as a woman? What would be the signs?

I can't get worked up about it.

That's assuming that you believe gender to be an innate element rather than a societally constructed one.

WackyDuck

Having read the descriptions "cis" means the same side, and "trans" means opposite, so ciswoman and transwoman must be opposite ie woman and man. Weird thing to choose if that's the case.

I've often thought that fab woman (female at birth woman) would be a much better descriptor. I'd happily be known as a fab woman grin

Oh that is great. My gut reaction to that is interesting - I think ‘fab woman’ sits much better with me than ‘vis’ - the fickle and irrational workings of the human brain.

I'm not sure why they say male to female or vice versa when it's literally impossible to change sex. You're born either male or female, and a very tiny minority are born with disorders that make their sex less apparent. You can be feminine or masculine but that's really more a case of personalities and you should be free to do what you please with your life as long as it doesn't hurt anyone but no one in the history of humans has ever transformed from one sex into another. I am female but I have both feminine and masculine traits to my personality.

[quote Blackandwhitehorse]@Booklover2021 you seem to be saying that a women is anyone who identifies as a women? Is that what you are saying? If not, then how would you personally actually define woman?[/quote]
Lots of the comments on here have discussed the concept of identity and how trans women and men have felt more that they identify with that particular gender.

I was biologically born a female and have always identified myself as a woman. I'm lucky that I've never had to go through the confusion and upset that a lot of trans people feel when their identity does not match their biological sex...therefore I have never had to sit and consciously think to myself "what is it that makes me feel like a woman" (so sorry for the Shania twain reference).

I'm not trying to be combative in any of my posts and I would respect anyone's pronouns including not referring to someone as cis if they weren't happy.

My point is that this thread is from one article where actually, as previously stated, the use of cis and trans was necessary to explain the situation. It doesn't make me feel like anyone is forcing me to always identify myself as a cis woman. But if I was called that, it wouldn't actually offend me because imo that is what I am.

@Waitwhat23

The term cis is a Latin prefix meaning 'on this side of' and has only (erroneously) been used as an antonym for 'trans' since around 1994. In scientific research, the term cis is used (i believe) to refer to chemical bonds but in terms of gender, it's made up nonsense.

Either way, it's outrageously hypocritical to enforce compliance of 'preferred pronouns' while insisting that women are forced to refer to themselves by a term with which they do not identify or agree with.

Yes cis/trans is used in chemistry to describe the relative positions of atoms cis/trans isomers are molecules with the same atoms but different positions.

As far as I am aware the Latin is only used for physical descriptions (like transalpine) outside of gender ideology.

Is the chest an organ? I consider it a part of my body, a region upon which resides my breast and within which resides my heart, lungs and so on.

This is very weird logic, mixing up areas of the body with organs. You wouldn’t say that if your liver was within your “tummy”, that your “tummy” was detoxifying your food, would you?

A breast is an organ. It isn’t just lumps of fat sitting on an area of the body. It contains milk ducts, specific cells and processes - it does things.

Chest is not really a medical term at all. If you wanted it call it your thorax, you could; but you’d find it rather odd to refer to breastfeeding - from the organ of the breast - as “thorax surface lump feeding” or similar.

Trans women do exist. They are indeed a subset of women

How so? In what way exactly are they a subset of women?

They’re men who dress up and have surgery to attempt to look like women. They have absolutely nothing in common with women. It is nothing but pretence and ignoring reality to say otherwise.

@Booklover2021

In your day to day life do you refer to yourself as a woman, think of yourself as a woman? Granted life isn't as pigeon holed as it used to be so being a woman is a much broader image nowadays (I just mean that it's not about wearing dresses, playing with dolls or fitting into into stereotype...more I suppose how a person sees themselves)

I just know I'm a woman. Someone who was born biologically male may identify in the same way as me and feel the same way as me. The difference being my identity relates to my sex at birth so I am cis, their identity does not so they are trans.

The thing is, I don't just "know" I'm a woman, as if it were some free-floating concept disconnected from my body.

In your day to day life do you refer to yourself as a woman, think of yourself as a woman?

I do, but only because it is (or rather was) the name for people of my biological sex.

If society decides "no, a woman is not an adult human female" then I would no longer refer to myself as a woman or think of myself as a woman.

But nothing about me would have changed. It would be an external redefinition imposed upon me.

And I'd still be female, and I'd still suffer from sexism and deal with female biology, and be physically weaker than the average man. But I'd no longer qualify for the "women-only" stuff that is supposed to counteract that while male-bodied people, who have none of those challenges, would.

To me that cannot be right. Something, somewhere, has got fucked up.

Trans women do exist. They are indeed a subset of women.

Transwomen are a subset of men

@LondonWolf

Trans women do exist. They are indeed a subset of women

How so? In what way exactly are they a subset of women?

They’re men who dress up and have surgery to attempt to look like women. They have absolutely nothing in common with women. It is nothing but pretence and ignoring reality to say otherwise.

You managed to say this so much more succinctly than me @LondonWolf Kudos!

For those who think that a woman is just "whoever identifies as one", what else are we using this qualifier for? I don't identify as a woman any more than I identify as Caucasian or 5'1". It's just a fact of material reality that I am an adult human female.

There are some things, such as religious or political beliefs where you can identify as such, while other people might disagree that you meet the necessary criteria to be called that, but that is precisely because they are based on a belief. Sex, species and age are not.

This, 100%!! I'm a woman, end of

Ironically, trans and cis emphasise otherness as they are opposites.

There is the phrase ‘Trans Alpine’ and ‘Cis Alpine’. Hannibal crossed the alps on an elephant.

Massive mountains between this side and the other. Not the same place at all.

Italians would not accept it if Germans were to call themselves ‘Trans Italians’ and Italians ‘Cis Italians’.

TreXX

Explain what you mean please. How is questioning myself and challenging myself got anything to do with patriarchy? Don’t we want to question our gut reactions? Isn’t that one of the amazing things about having an evolved frontal cortex? We don’t just have to go with our gut instincts. What has consideration about the experience and inclusion of others got to do with patriarchy? I challenge myself in this way around race and class too if I find myself having a gut reaction about something. I can’t help my gut reaction but I can help what I do about it. Entering into that internal process has nothing to do with patriarchy.