To despise being called ‘cis’?

[Ostryga]

I’m not ‘cis’. I’m not ‘cisgendered’. I’m literally a woman. I’ve just read a guardian article that calls women seeking IVF cisgendered.

Why????

@Booklover2021 I guess the point I’m getting at is, you don’t seem to be able to define what a woman is.

If we as a society can’t define women anymore how do we combat misogyny? how do we define same sex attraction? How do we fight sexism? If you believe women’s prisons should be single sex (you might not) how do we enforce that..? It just brings up a lot of questions if the word changes from a sex based material reality one, to some vague ‘identity’

I completely get some people feel they have been born as a man but should be a woman. And on an individual level most reasonable people will use preferred pro nouns etc but language change at a population level i don’t agree with due to the examples I mentioned above.

@FOJN

Zotter

I'd suggest the partner (? wife, not sure if they're married yet) of a transman may be a bit biased.

@FOJN, I realise the pic comes up of Jammidodger’s partner but the video is by a woman critiquing Jammidodger and partner’s arguments.

Fuck, this makes me so sad for the world.

I’m a woman. A female. End of story.

A man cannot decide to be a woman. He can dress as one. Grow his hair. Have surgery. Take hormones. He will still be a man. Same as a
woman who wants to be a man and does all those things to look like one. I’m sick of being called an arsehole for having that view.

Cis my fat arse.

I'm not trying to be combative in any of my posts and I would respect anyone's pronouns including not referring to someone as cis if they weren't happy

I completely respect this but the fact is it'd be hard to say you don't want to be called cis without being labelled transphobic. I'm not transphobic but nor do I want to be called cis. However I probably would just suck it up for that reason, but that doesn't feel great.

'Cis - your gender being the same as your sex'
NO ABSOLUTEL NOT. I DO NOT HAVE A GENDER. I HAVE A SEX AND A PERSONALITY. SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE.

@Suspiciousmind20

TreXX

Explain what you mean please. How is questioning myself and challenging myself got anything to do with patriarchy? Don’t we want to question our gut reactions? Isn’t that one of the amazing things about having an evolved frontal cortex? We don’t just have to go with our gut instincts. What has consideration about the experience and inclusion of others got to do with patriarchy? I challenge myself in this way around race and class too if I find myself having a gut reaction about something. I can’t help my gut reaction but I can help what I do about it. Entering into that internal process has nothing to do with patriarchy.

Honey, sweetie, darling, if you don't know by now I can't help you

I agree op. I am a woman!!!!!!!!!! 💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽

Indeed - trans women do exist but they are a subset of men and not women. They have XY chromosome so it’s actually very simple scientifically.

So it should be male jails with a separate wing for transwomen, crime stats with a separate category for trans women, male toilets that transwomen are allowed to access.

@LynetteScavo

On some online form this week I was asked to choose between female, trans female and cis female.

I chose female.

I would have been pissed off it that hadn't been an option.

I’ve had forms that gave me the option of cis woman, trans woman or other. I chose other and hopefully fucked up their demographic dataset.

MrsPsmalls

That's not my explanation, it actually came from a training course I went on.

Either way, I believe in the concept of gender, I understand why other people don't. I'm not looking for a bunfight.

@thatonehasalittlecar

But the use in this article is to make it clear that they are talking about heterosexual couples encompassing a man & a woman that were born as such.

It’s a way of differentiating between the gay / single women named in the law suit, and the people who they say get a better deal from the CCG (the hetero ‘cis’ couple).

There’s a good reason for the use of the term cis in this case, so yeah, YABU.

No there isn't. It's comparing a lesbian couple with a heterosexual couple. If it was important to recognise gender identity then the lesbian couple would also have to be called cisgender.

Gender identity is irrelevant to conception. Sex and fertility are all that matters, and that is all about biology.

I am not now, nor will I ever be "cis". I am a woman.

Either way, I believe in the concept of gender

It would be helpful if you could articulate what it is.

@Lammysaurus on nearly all the other threads in aibu there seems to be an effort to engage in a good faith debate. This thread is an extension of the echo chamber in the sex and gender discussion. If GC posters want to get together and talk about how terrible they think certain terms are, that's fine - there is a whole section of the site for it. But let's be honest GC posters don't want an actual debate (and that's fine, that's their prerogative), so why put this thread in aibu?

TheKeatingFive

Helpful to who? I'm not particularly sure my view is helpful to anyone. I was just stating why the word Cis was used.

[quote Newwallpaint]@Lammysaurus on nearly all the other threads in aibu there seems to be an effort to engage in a good faith debate. This thread is an extension of the echo chamber in the sex and gender discussion. If GC posters want to get together and talk about how terrible they think certain terms are, that's fine - there is a whole section of the site for it. But let's be honest GC posters don't want an actual debate (and that's fine, that's their prerogative), so why put this thread in aibu?[/quote]

Have you actually read AIBU threads?!!

@takealettermsjones

Hi *@cheeseismydownfall, @Blibbyblobby*

I don't think I can really articulate that properly, not being trans and having that experience, but from what I've had explained to me it has to do with internal identity and how we see ourselves, the groups we identify most with, etc. A friend of mine once explained that in social settings, big groups will often naturally split into men and women, and pre-transition, she never felt comfortable chatting to the groups of men etc. I'm sure it's a lot more nuanced but that was an example I was given.

I can absolutely understand that is her genuine experience. What I don't understand is why that makes her factually a woman, rather than a man who feels more in common with the cultural and social norms our culture associates and socialises into women.

And this matters.

Because understanding a trans woman to be a man who fits more comfortably with women but is still a man does not require us to disregard the significance of having a female body in a sexist society. It does not require us to give up single sex rights, spaces and opportunities. It does not tell us that male bodies have a right to be in female sports. It does not insist that female people meeting and speaking publicly and collectively about the complete lived experience and challenges of being a woman including those parts that spring directly or indirectly from our biology is an act of hatred. It does, in short, not require female people to shut up and budge over to make male people comfortable.

Whereas defining a trans woman to be an actual innate woman, in some deep and undefined way more akin to cis women than to other males, is only possible if you remove the significance of the female body to being a woman.

And if you do that, all the things I listed above are lost.

That is the cost to female people of blithely and thoughtlessly accepting that cis and trans are "just different types of woman".

@Suspiciousmind20bi agree it is good to challenge your gut feeling, (and that’s not bowing down to the man)

I would also just say though, it’s worth looking into the gender ideology as it has some elements of a religion in my opinion. A lot of it doesn’t add up but people are being pushed into going along with it under the guise of inclusivity. But fairness, truth and safeguarding for me, outweigh inclusion at any cost.

Helpful to who?

To me for starters.

What objectively is gender? How, objectively does one know what gender one is?

TreXX

Rather ironically, you have just been more patronising to me than anyone has been in the last ten years. Way to go. thankfully I am not easily offended and am very confident in myself. Thankfully others on this thread are happy to engage in a proper robust discussion with people who may have a slightly different world view.

@TreXX well maybe good faith debate is pushing it but a canvassing a views let's say? Which this thread is obviously not.

Hi @foxgoosefinch

I don't agree with you, but I understand the points you are making. However I don't think the existence of an internal self that is separate from the physical body is a necessarily religious idea. But that's probably beside the point now!

Some people want to be the opposite sex to the one they are born as. That’s fine. But they aren’t the other sex; and hormones and surgery don’t change them into it.

That's interesting with regard to the definition of women - so if they are legally, physically, hormonally, societally (etc) women, I wonder what it is that makes them not really women? Is it just that they were not born so? Or is it the chromosome?

Like PPs I am not trying to be combative, and I think this is a subject that can be discussed and debated endlessly, but I am going to leave it there now. Have a good night

Blibbyblobby, beautifully explained, thank you.

@Suspiciousmind20

TreXX

Rather ironically, you have just been more patronising to me than anyone has been in the last ten years. Way to go. thankfully I am not easily offended and am very confident in myself. Thankfully others on this thread are happy to engage in a proper robust discussion with people who may have a slightly different world view.

I find all of that very hard to believe

@foxgoosefinch

Is the chest an organ? I consider it a part of my body, a region upon which resides my breast and within which resides my heart, lungs and so on.

This is very weird logic, mixing up areas of the body with organs. You wouldn’t say that if your liver was within your “tummy”, that your “tummy” was detoxifying your food, would you?

A breast is an organ. It isn’t just lumps of fat sitting on an area of the body. It contains milk ducts, specific cells and processes - it does things.

Chest is not really a medical term at all. If you wanted it call it your thorax, you could; but you’d find it rather odd to refer to breastfeeding - from the organ of the breast - as “thorax surface lump feeding” or similar.

I’m not mixing them up at all. I simply pointed out that I see my breast as a part of my chest, in the same way I see my knee as part of my leg.

So if someone feels uncomfortable labelling their breasts as breasts (presumably because of the feminine associations?) and prefers to be less specific by referring to their chest, crack on. It’s not wrong to say ‘chest feeding’, even if it’s not medically accurate. I mean, people talk about pregnant bellies and babies in mummy’s tummy all the time. Do you correct every one of them that it’s not in the tummy, it’s in the uterus? Or are you only bothered about trans people not being medically rigorous?

TheKeatingFive Sorry I didn't realise I was required to be helpful.