To despise being called ‘cis’?

[Ostryga]

I’m not ‘cis’. I’m not ‘cisgendered’. I’m literally a woman. I’ve just read a guardian article that calls women seeking IVF cisgendered.

Why????

Trans women do exist. They are indeed a subset of women.

How are you defining "women" above? What are the common features/characteristics shared by cis and trans women that make them different to cis and trans men, non binary people or any other gender?

We all fall into multiple subsets of "women" all the time, depending on context: blonde women, tall women, child-free women, perimenopausal women, rugby-playing women...

And they are all still women. Adult human females.

Trans women do exist. They are indeed a subset of women.

Yes they exist. No they aren’t women. They are trans women.

Is the idea that a lesbian should be attracted to or be willing to have sex with a trans woman, or a gay man be attracted to, or willing to have sex with a trans man, part of the same confusion over what sexual orientation is that the Guardian’s wording ‘cisgendered heterosexual’ would seem to imply?

In your day to day life do you refer to yourself as a woman, think of yourself as a woman? Granted life isn't as pigeon holed as it used to be so being a woman is a much broader image nowadays (I just mean that it's not about wearing dresses, playing with dolls or fitting into into stereotype...more I suppose how a person sees themselves)

I just know I'm a woman. Someone who was born biologically male may identify in the same way as me and feel the same way as me. The difference being my identity relates to my sex at birth so I am cis, their identity does not so they are trans.

Trans - from the Latin for opposite of.

Cis - from the Latin for same as.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

foxgoosefinch

Thanks for that. I’m keen to have an honest discussion so it’s helpful to read that. I can see your point and agree. My gut reaction to being called a ‘cis’ woman is ‘fuck off, I’m a woman. Always have been, always will be.’ Why should someone else dictate my identity without my consent.

I guess my struggle then is that I really want the world to be inclusive and I have come to understand how hard it is for people to not fit ‘the norm’ in terms of gender identity. So my musing about power, isn’t about the power of being female, (as a woman I feel that I have to fight to gain power), it’s more the power or ease of being ‘the norm’. I’ve never had anyone get my gender identity wrong or make the wrong assumption about my sexuality. So my wondering is (and it’s a genuine curiosity and trying to figure out where I stand) whether my gut reaction is completely justified and one I want to leave unchallenged or just that I want to hang on to that ease of not having to explain myself in this way. The ease of people’s assumptions about my gender and sexuality being correct and mostly not even needing to mention it or think about it.

I don’t have an answer yet but I just don’t want to assume my gut reaction is a reaction I want to stick with. If that makes sense?

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts about it in a thoughtful way and not just having a pop at me!

'Cis' because we identify with the gender associates with our sex? Identify with being viewed as sex objects, being paid less, having less representation, with taking on a vastly disproportionate share of domestic labour and care? In other words 'Cis women' choose to be oppressed? Yeah right!!!

As for men who clain the word woman as simply by affixing 'trans' being marginalised? Ha! They are centred in everything while the government pays stonewall milions to lobby them about how to place trans in a pedestal and marginalise women and destroy women's rights and even our language.

Granted life isn't as pigeon holed as it used to be so being a woman is a much broader image nowadays (I just mean that it's not about wearing dresses, playing with dolls or fitting into into stereotype...more I suppose how a person sees themselves)

So what is it then?

What defines 'being a woman'?

Trans women do exist. They are indeed a subset of women.

What a pile of misogynist crap.

Having read the descriptions "cis" means the same side, and "trans" means opposite, so ciswoman and transwoman must be opposite ie woman and man. Weird thing to choose if that's the case.

I've often thought that fab woman (female at birth woman) would be a much better descriptor. I'd happily be known as a fab woman

@takealettermsjones

It's chill everyone, it just stands for c**t in situ.

Jokes aside, it's just a descriptor. We all fall into multiple subsets of "women" all the time, depending on context: blonde women, tall women, child-free women, perimenopausal women, rugby-playing women...

Trans women do exist. They are indeed a subset of women. In certain medical contexts, things may not apply to trans women. So therefore it might be confusing to just refer to "women" - does that include trans women too? If an author wants to refer only to "women who have always been biologically female", doesn't it make sense to have a short way of saying that?

This woman has a reply to that at 5.11 in this video

Made up twaddle.

Created to not hurt the feelings of those who don’t see themselves as the sex they were born as - to dampen down the need for them to have ‘trans’ but not to use an expression such as ‘real’ or ‘actual’.

Witchcraftandhokum

Trans - from the Latin for opposite of.

Cis - from the Latin for same as.

That’s interesting to know.

@DaphneDeloresMoorhead

I am cis because I was born female and I identify as a woman. Simple.

So you're happy becoming a subsection of men then, are you ?
If natal females = cis ergo women = men

What?

Hi @cheeseismydownfall, @Blibbyblobby

I don't think I can really articulate that properly, not being trans and having that experience, but from what I've had explained to me it has to do with internal identity and how we see ourselves, the groups we identify most with, etc. A friend of mine once explained that in social settings, big groups will often naturally split into men and women, and pre-transition, she never felt comfortable chatting to the groups of men etc. I'm sure it's a lot more nuanced but that was an example I was given.

I haven’t asked for this change of language and I don’t agree with it.

I don’t believe in gender, I am the most liberal person you have ever met. I have being saying this for years even before gender was trendy, gender is a social construct, different countries have different ideas about gender roles and how they behave.

What is 100% true is sex and biology.

If men expressing themselves against social norm gender roles and don’t feel safe; well that feels like a mans problem.

I will support you if you don’t want to be traditionally masculine, as again I don’t believe that traditional masculinity is a thing. I will support you against the toxic masculinity you may face as a result of you being you, that’s what we need to be fighting against

@TheKeatingFive

Granted life isn't as pigeon holed as it used to be so being a woman is a much broader image nowadays (I just mean that it's not about wearing dresses, playing with dolls or fitting into into stereotype...more I suppose how a person sees themselves)

So what is it then?

What defines 'being a woman'?

I don't know what the textbook definition would be. I think its how a person identifies. I identify as a woman and I haven't really ever had to put much thought into why.

So what about people born as women but who identify neither as men or women

Honestly - it's flippant but you can 'identify' as something as much as you want, it doesn't actually make you that thing. There's a man who identifies as a female dragon. How come the 'female' part is ok but the 'dragon' part is not? Both are equally impossible. We are kind to those that need kindness but we can all tell who is male and who is female in almost all cases.

Most of us don't identify as anything. We simply are. I'm an adult human female, a woman. Hear my voice, see my body, and that is obvious. Even if I tell you that you must refer to me as 'they' when not in my presence.

@Suspiciousmind20

So, I went to some training by a charity that support the LBQT+ community. It really opened my eyes to how hard it is to have people make massive assumptions about you without checking (e.g. calling you ‘he’ when you identify as a woman, assuming you are heterosexual when you are not). It’s very alienating and ‘othering’.

I work with the public and want to be as inclusive as possible and make everyone feel comfortable. I want to be really mindful of this.

As someone who has been identified as a woman all my life and am obviously a woman, and as a heterosexual, I’ve never experienced anyone making wrong assumptions about me in that respect. I don’t want to be blind to the fact that this means that life has been easier for me in that respect.

thatonehasalittlecar
Thank you. That explanation of making things more equal - ‘trans-woman and ‘cis-woman’ helps me to understand. I still don’t like the idea of being called a cis-woman though. It is a gut reaction. That then makes me wonder if I’m holding on to the power (a bit like men do when challenged on misogyny or racists do when challenged eg All lives matter). This has given me lots of food for thought.

I think it’s really helpful to challenge ourselves in this way and think about these issues. It’s something I will continue to ponder on.

I see the patriarchy has you well and truly by the ovaries.

Woman = adult human female

@CatsOperatingInGangs You shouldn't need to be rude to make your point.

@cheeseismydownfall

There is only one kind of woman. Adult human females. There is absolutely no need for any additional qualifier to the word.

Correct. And some loser just got one of my posts deleted for saying the same thing. Well, tough, because in the real world 99% of people think gender ideology is utter bollocks

I identify as a woman and I haven't really ever had to put much thought into why.

Well that's telling

In an effort to stop othering others women must other themselves to keep the others from being othered.

I despise it, I refuse it. I won't list my.pronouns in emails and I won't introduce myself with my.pronounons either.

I am more than happy to respect other people's pronouns and their definitions of themselves. I expect the same in return. I am a woman. I do not want to be referred to as cis.