To despise being called ‘cis’?

[Ostryga]

I’m not ‘cis’. I’m not ‘cisgendered’. I’m literally a woman. I’ve just read a guardian article that calls women seeking IVF cisgendered.

Why????

Ach, look. I know it can be hard to have a lot of people disagree with you. Fair enough. Nobody likes to feel like they are up against a lot of people, that's totally normal and understandable. But your posts have been really extraordinarily unpleasant, little car. I find that a bit startling, to be honest. Why would this subject bring out such a strong reaction?

@beastlyslumber

Yes, I'm aware that you are using a metaphor when you refer to the "gaping red hole" you see when women talk. You clearly have a problem with women talking if that image represents your state of being.

I honestly haven’t made it up. Have a look at some of earlier discussions where someone piped up with ‘I’m a woman and I’m not XX’ and she was told (and I’m paraphrasing, just so you know 👍) that she didn’t really count because there were so few of her.

Your idea of "paraphrasing" is to make up things that no one said, either directly or indirectly, or even hinted at. The poster herself was clear she didn't think she had been in any way targeted about her DSD - because she wasn't.

You are a liar.

Not all women.

Why is the idea of a gaping red hole so offensive to you? You’ve heard of shouting into the void? You know red is the colour most associated with anger?

So what better image of this angry mess of argument is there?

I don’t get your issue.

But I can assure you, I’m not a liar. Perhaps I see things differently. I know that isn’t encouraged here, but hey, what can I do? I’m just that non-confirming kind of gal.

@ArabellaScott

Shrieking void? Don't give a fuck about our trauma? Angry red hole?!

Wow. What an astonishing reaction to women asserting they don't wish to be called a certain word.

Yeah, the angry red hole is a particularly telling metaphor.

It's amazing how the people who don't believe in biological sex want to call women angry red holes when they want to

Why is the idea of a gaping red hole so offensive to you?

Er ...

It’s so hard to make up our collective mind. Honestly it’s just beyond me.

So can I have my own mind, please?

I know it’s a big ask, it’s just I am a totally separate woman to the one who correctly identified Mumsnet as predominantly middle class based on the data gathered by the site and its commercial partners.

Oh sorry, I'm afraid I find you all a bit hard to tell apart. I just see an "angry red hole" whenever I read your posts.

But I can assure you, I’m not a liar.

If you're not lying, you'll be able to provide the quotes. If you do so, I will of course apologise and retract my accusation.

I don’t get your issue.

Obviously.

Can't say I "despise" being called "cis" as I've been called far worse in my lifetime. I've had a few laughs over the years with people assuming my sexuality was 'lesbian' or I've pretended to be transgender (male to female) for a good night's sleep in a strange bed.

If I cared what people call me I'd suggest Strong Independent Woman, like the many before me. CIS does rather sound like a Soviet State transitioning to democracy I think.

Just call me by name as it's easier.

Heard a great program on R4 today with a linguist who explained loads about the new gender/id/sex/relationship language.

I think it is a good time to return to state that 92% of posters on MN all agree that with OP that we reject being called 'cis'.

Women are not a subset of women. I don't have a gender identity and therefore not even 'gender' is an acceptable term.

#womensaynothankyou

I wonder, by my troth, what thou and I

Did, till we loved? Were we not weaned till then?

But sucked on country pleasures, childishly?

Or snorted we in the Seven Sleepers’ den?

’Twas so; but this, all pleasures fancies be.

If ever any beauty I did see,

Which I desired, and got, ’twas but a dream of thee.

And now good-morrow to our waking souls,

Which watch not one another out of fear;

For love, all love of other sights controls,

And makes one little room an everywhere.

Let sea-discoverers to new worlds have gone,

Let maps to other, worlds on worlds have shown,

Let us possess one world, each hath one, and is one.

My face in thine eye, thine in mine appears,

And true plain hearts do in the faces rest;

Where can we find two better hemispheres,

Without sharp north, without declining west?

Whatever dies, was not mixed equally;

If our two loves be one, or, thou and I

Love so alike, that none do slacken, none can die.

[Bold mine]

I think John Donne knew the difference between men and women...

I still don’t like to be referred to as cis. And two of the posters who seem to be the most insistent that I call myself something against my will have also been aggressive, rude and condescending.

I especially found it hard to read the “Things don’t give a fck about your childhood trauma. Bullying is awful and I cannot believe how unkind that comment was.

I hope all transgender people live in peace. I wish them well. If they are going through trauma, they need help.

But sometimes there is a clash of interests. A cervical screening campaign aimed at “cervix havers” will miss the 40% of women who don’t know they have a cervix. Cervical cancer can kill you.

In Scotland, a rape victim cannot aka for a biological women as a rape counsellor. Because the head of rape support is a transwoman who fees that rape victims should accept to have their rape kits taken by biological males.

There are clashes of interest which need to be discussed and managed. And I think it is clear which side the disregard for trauma, the aggression and the insults come from.

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Nobody has said you are cars you misread that post.

Unsurprisingly!

What did @TaliaB1 mean by this sentence, in a direct post to me, then?

you shouldn't be offended if we 'don't give a fuck' about TW's experiences. It goes both ways. If you can't give a fuck about women, don't expect us to give a fuck about you and your side.

It sounds to me like she’s suggesting I’m not a woman, and ‘my side’ is with TW.

If that’s not the case, what is ‘my side?’ And where have I given rise to the notion that I don’t care about women? Am I supposed to care about all women? Like, every single one? That’s really going to eat into my brain space. I just don’t think I can do it.

I think John Donne knew the difference between men and women...

Most people do, including every single person on this thread.

@ArabellaScott

It's 'awkward' that most people don't have a full knowledge of the back catalogue of a metaphysical English poet writing in the late 15th C?

Or - it's awkward in that you chose a very particular image to describe how you see a group of women?

I'd go with the latter, frankly.

I’m going to go with it’s awkward I used such an esoteric reference.

But you do you.

Did I miss it? The naming of each of the axis that measure the sex spectrum??

I have been waiting patiently for this since it was insisted on this thread so vehemently that sex really is a spectrum.

Am I supposed to care about all women?
Like, every single one? That’s really going to eat into my brain space. I just don’t think I can do it.

Yes, that's clear.

Perhaps I see things differently. I know that isn’t encouraged here, but hey, what can I do?

Hate to break this to you but lots of us don’t agree completely on this or other issues

It just suits people to think that we do…doesn’t suit me, pisses me right off

Did I miss it? The naming of each of the axis that measure the sex spectrum??

I must have missed it too!

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

thatone

It landed with me

Would probably have landed with others as well

I thought so, but then I was accused of being too esoteric, so I thoroughly I’d misjudged the level.

I just can’t win. 🤷‍♀️

Donne definitely knew what a woman is, in his delightful poem (and it truly is quite delightful) on his erection as he took his mistress's clothes off:

Come, madam, come, all rest my powers defy,
Until I labour, I in labour lie.
The foe oft-times having the foe in sight,
Is tired with standing though he never fight.
Off with that girdle, like heaven's zone glistering,
But a far fairer world encompassing.
Unpin that spangled breastplate which you wear,
That th'eyes of busy fools may be stopped there.
Unlace yourself, for that harmonious chime
Tells me from you that now it is bed time.
Off with that happy busk, which I envy,
That still can be, and still can stand so nigh.
Your gown going off, such beauteous state reveals,
As when from flowery meads th'hills shadow steals.
Off with your wiry coronet and show
The hairy diadem which on you doth grow:
Now off with those shoes: and then safely tread
In this love's hallowed temple, this soft bed.
In such white robes heaven's angels used to be
Received by men; thou, Angel, bring'st with thee
A heaven like Mahomet's Paradise; and though
Ill spirits walk in white, we easily know
By this these Angels from an evil sprite:
Those set our hairs, but these our flesh upright.
License my roving hands, and let them go
Before, behind, between, above, below.
O my America! my new-found-land,
My kingdom, safeliest when with one man manned,
My mine of precious stones, my empery,
How blest am I in this discovering thee!
To enter in these bonds is to be free;
Then where my hand is set, my seal shall be.
Full nakedness! All joys are due to thee,
As souls unbodied, bodies unclothed must be,
To taste whole joys. Gems which you women use
Are as Atlanta's balls, cast in men's views,
That when a fool's eye lighteth on a gem,
His earthly soul may covet theirs, not them:
Like pictures, or like books' gay coverings made
For lay-men, are all women thus arrayed.
Themselves are mystic books, which only we
(Whom their imputed grace will dignify)
Must see revealed. Then, since that I may know,
As liberally as to a midwife, show
Thyself: cast all, yea, this white linen hence,
There is no penance due to innocence:
To teach thee, I am naked first; why than,
What need'st thou have more covering than a man?

The whole 'both sides are as bad as each other' is just errant nonsense.

There is no GC equivalent to this - www.terfisaslur.com

Single sex spaces are not transphobic.

Am I supposed to care about all women? Like, every single one? That’s really going to eat into my brain space. I just don’t think I can do it.

We know. We have seen this. Gaping red holes and all.

#nothankyou

It’s clear that “your side” would include a trans ally , thatone.

Anyway, this thread is nearly full.

The vast majority of women here, not all of whom will regularly engage on this topic, do not with to be called cis, and find it troubling that their identity is not respected by people who purport to go to bat for people’s identities to be respected.

"Cis" makes no sense. Women are female. Males are male. Women aren't a subset of women. We are the category.