To despise being called ‘cis’?

[Ostryga]

I’m not ‘cis’. I’m not ‘cisgendered’. I’m literally a woman. I’ve just read a guardian article that calls women seeking IVF cisgendered.

Why????

@ExcitedtoTry

Couldn’t care less & still not sure why people do reading the comments.

Cis, non cis… not bothered. And what a privilege that is.

Exactly this. My day is not affected either way by what someone calls me and I'm certainly not sure why being referred to as cis is causing some of these posters so much anger and upset.

I am cis because I was born female and I identify as a woman. Simple.

*Frimley states that same-sex female couples, and single women and people with wombs, must pay for 12 intrauterine insemination (IUI) or IVF treatments to “prove” medical infertility, costing an estimated £30,000 or more, before receiving NHS help.

By contrast, the majority of cisgendered heterosexual couples, including Megan’s sister, are required only to try to conceive for two years.*

I'm afraid I find this very confusing. "Single women AND people with wombs" - are these transmen - if so why not just say Single women and transmen? And perhaps transmen are married so it gets more complicated.

And why cisgendered and not just heterosexual couples?

I do sympathise with anyone trying to conceive. I rather doubt that the majority of heterosexual couples only have to fail to conceive after two years before getting NHS help. I know heterosexual couples who have tried for four years or more and still not had NHS help.

I would dearly like citations.

Why isn't anyone fighting this?

We are, there are lots of organisations fighting for women's rights (women as in adult human female). If you wanted evidence that the patriarchy is alive and well, this is it, despite all the effort this ideology has continued to gain ground, capturing many institutions and organisation. Women have had been taken to court, lost jobs, been threatened with violence and subjected to actual violence whilst fighting for their rights and still they continue to campaign.

Why are we meekly accepting it?

I can assure you the feminists I know are anything but meek.

Have a look at the feminist (sex and gender) board to find out what's actually going on and how you can get involved in campaigning to protect women's rights.

That then makes me wonder if I’m holding on to the power (a bit like men do when challenged on misogyny or racists do when challenged eg All lives matter).

Except that it’s largely (“non-cis”) men who are enforcing this change, no?

You’re not holding on to any “power”. Men are dictating to you what you can call yourself. The power, if you want to call it that, has always been men’s. They’re just reminding you - in their “non-cis” guise - that they’ve always have the social power to tell women what they should be doing and now they’re reinforcing it once again.

Thanks also to a pp who pointed out that according to the own logic of gender ideology, if we get called cis and non-man, we can also say “non-cis man” as well by return; and that makes everything really so delightfully clear, doesn’t it?

I have loads of sympathy for trans people of the "truscum" type who genuinely feel their lives are intolerable if they can't live lives as close as possible to the opposite sex.

I have none at all for people who claim to be "male" and yet still want the female "privilege" of giving birth, thus requiring the rest of the world to adopt nonsensical lies that male people can somehow get pregnant.

Exactly. It's blatant cake and eat it territory.

Of course it's offensive it suggests both that we are a sub set of women & that we are part of the religion.

Women are adult human females - there is no other way to be a woman.
I don't have a "gender identity" I have a sex & a personality.

Plus if we start using "cis" then the usual sort will start claiming to be cis women despite being male
Actually india willoughby is ahead of the game & already did this.

You said that instead of ‘people with wombs’ you could either say ‘women’ (biological women who identify as women) or ‘trans men’ (people born female who identify as men)

This must be a different poster because I didn't say that.

So what about people born as women but who identify neither as men or women. What do you want to call them, if you don’t agree with ‘people with wombs’?

This part I don't understand.

The point you are failing to grasp so spectacularly, is that there are many different people, with many different body parts and many different ways to combine them

That doesn't especially make sense to me no.

As for how often you hear about cis men v cis women - well this is a website aimed at women, so it’s not that surprising, is it? I would assume that elsewhere on the vast internet, there are similar conversations happening about cis men v men

I was talking about life outside of Mumsnet, where I've heard cis women being referred to but not cis men.

I just think the only differences between male and female people (or "men" and "women" as the words used to be) are either directly biological or where society treats us differently because of our bodies

I agree with this.

I am cis because I was born female and I identify as a woman. Simple.

So you're happy becoming a subsection of men then, are you ?
If natal females = cis ergo women = men

I am cis because I was born female and I identify as a woman. Simple.

I am a woman because I was born female. Even more simple.

@crosstalk

‘People with wombs’ could be referring to trans men, but it could also encompass non-binary people born female. So ‘people with wombs’ is more inclusive.

‘Hetereosexual’ can be sex-defined (ie biological man & biological woman’) or gender defined (ie man & woman) whatever their genitals. The first is probably more usual, but by including the word ‘cisgendered’ it clarifies that they are referring to a couple made up of a bio female and bio man.

Definitions change - I just came across an article that suggests that ‘heterosexual’ used to mean someone with a perverse attraction to the other sex; now it just means attracted to the other sex. So I don’t really see what harm extra clarity has.

I will ignore that odious word until I die. Same with the pronouns BS.

I am cis because I was born female and I identify as a woman. Simple.

What is it about yourself that leads you to identify as a woman?

This is a genuine question.

As I said above, I can identify as a woman if it's the name for my biological sex. But if that is not what "woman" means - and as soon as you introduce the concept of cis- you must be using a definition of woman that does not mean biological sex - I cannot identify as a woman.

So I am genuinely very keen to understand what "Woman" means to those who identify as cis women. What do they recognise in themselves and in trans women, but in no other male or female people?

It is important to me because I do not rule out the possibility that I am indeed a cis woman and I just don't realise it. But until someone can explain to me what a woman is, how can I tell?

I am a person with a womb. I am also female. A woman. A ciswoman. I feed from my breast, which is a part of my chest.

Do you know that sounds very much like the kinds of things the Romans used to call enslaved women in the Classical world. “A ciswoman”. Delightful. You do know that your breast is a completely separate organ to your chest, not part of it?

I thought the idea was that these threads were put in the Gender section.

@Tal45

There's woman and transwoman. Cis is not required.

Yup!

I find it very offensive too!

People with wombs’ could be referring to trans men, but it could also encompass non-binary people born female. So ‘people with wombs’ is more inclusive

So you can choose to be non binary but you can't choose to be called a woman?

How does the word cis make trans people feel less marginalised?

I am not giving my opinion, but I think some want to to view trans and cis as sub categories under ‘‘woman’.

@Poetrypatty

People with wombs’ could be referring to trans men, but it could also encompass non-binary people born female. So ‘people with wombs’ is more inclusive

So you can choose to be non binary but you can't choose to be called a woman?

Nope, only men are allowed to be called women in this brave new world

“thatonehasalittlecar
Hetereosexual’ can be sex-defined (ie biological man & biological woman’) or gender defined (ie man & woman) whatever their genitals. The first is probably more usual, but by including the word ‘cisgendered’ it clarifies that they are referring to a couple made up of a bio female and bio man“

‘Heterosexual’ as far as I ever knew can only mean people attracted to the opposite biological sex.

Do you mean that by saying ‘cisgendered heterosexual’ it clarifies that the couple is not made up of a trans man and a trans woman ( I.e. a biological woman and a biological man ) who don’t want to be called heterosexual because that would upset their sense of identity?

It's chill everyone, it just stands for c**t in situ.

Jokes aside, it's just a descriptor. We all fall into multiple subsets of "women" all the time, depending on context: blonde women, tall women, child-free women, perimenopausal women, rugby-playing women...

Trans women do exist. They are indeed a subset of women. In certain medical contexts, things may not apply to trans women. So therefore it might be confusing to just refer to "women" - does that include trans women too? If an author wants to refer only to "women who have always been biologically female", doesn't it make sense to have a short way of saying that?

There is only one kind of woman. Adult human females. There is absolutely no need for any additional qualifier to the word.

There's woman and transwoman. Cis is not required.

Absolutely. A woman is an adult human female who was born as such. A trans woman is a man who wishes to live as a woman. It is absolutely not the case that “cis-woman” and “trans-woman” are both a sub-group of “woman”.

I find being referred to as “cis” deeply offensive. And I find it ironic, deeply fucking ironic, that those who will complain bitterly about being “misgendered” and suchlike when others refer to them in a way they don’t like, feel free to define how others should be referred to. The sheer entitlement of it.

@takealettermsjones

It's chill everyone, it just stands for c**t in situ.

Jokes aside, it's just a descriptor. We all fall into multiple subsets of "women" all the time, depending on context: blonde women, tall women, child-free women, perimenopausal women, rugby-playing women...

Trans women do exist. They are indeed a subset of women. In certain medical contexts, things may not apply to trans women. So therefore it might be confusing to just refer to "women" - does that include trans women too? If an author wants to refer only to "women who have always been biologically female", doesn't it make sense to have a short way of saying that?

Trans women do exist. They are indeed a subset of women.

What are the characteristics that make transwomen a subset of women, exactly?

I find cis incredibly offensive. It's funny isn't it how real women are not allowed to be offended, but there's hell to pay if a transwoman is misgendered.

I am cis because I was born female and I identify as a woman. Simple.

What do you mean by “identify as”? Is it something close to “imagine yourself to be”?

Many of us don’t believe in the religion of “identity”. Until very recently we all seemed to know quite well that “identity” is a kind of mental fantasy or imaginative construction, a set of (often inconsistent) created narratives and stories we tell ourselves about who we are (compare “national identity”, “cultural identity”, “group identity”).

“Identity” in some cases now gets spoken about like it’s a transcendent state of inner being. Yet I’d get laughed out of town if I said my national identity was immanent and transcendent, that being English is some kind of actual thing inside me that is a firm and fixed truth existing since I was born. How is national identity any different from gender identity in that case?

Since I don’t believe in “identity” as a real thing, why should I be referred to by these quasi-religious identity terms I don’t believe in?