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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To despise being called ‘cis’?

999 replies

Ostryga · 07/11/2021 19:50

I’m not ‘cis’. I’m not ‘cisgendered’. I’m literally a woman. I’ve just read a guardian article that calls women seeking IVF cisgendered.

Why????

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2021 15:44

I'm not sure you've offered much of a discussion Heloise. Just posturing and bluster. And how adorable, more inane thought terminating cliches. Perhaps you didn't quite grasp the point being made.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 08/11/2021 15:50

That's not how a discussion works - "just making your own point not dependent on what others want to say" - but it really does explain a lot if you think it does!

Pardon? A discussion doesn't move on, people don't repsond to things others add in? How does it work then?

Good luck to you over there on the wrong side of history x And there you go again, not being rude, not deliberately being provocative in a facile manner!

Artichokeleaves · 08/11/2021 15:54

Why is it a "rude jeering" to point out that the demographics of the people who open a mumsnet thread with a title about how they despise being called cis is in no way representative of the population at large? I'm willing to bet that a huge percentage of them would have no fucking idea what "cis" even is

And to say that the readership of MN is "mostly middle-class" is just a fact based on the actual demographics of the site and it doesn't equal "no working class or rich women ever read MN". Why are people so desperate to put words in my mouth or twist what I've said to make a better strawman to knock down? Why are some of you so offended that I pointed out that MN is a well-known source of Gender Critical discussion? It's a fact. I thought many of you were proud of that. I know I would be, if I shared your views on gender.

I know not everyone understands the basis of argument and logical fallacies but things are getting ridiculous, honestly.

You really can't handle doing this with any kind of civility, or respect for others can you? You couldn't be signalling your perceived superiority any more clearly.

I'm sure you're a lovely, very superior, much cleverer person than me from some demographic that entitles you to sneer at others who don't matter, and to tell over 1000 women how silly they are for not doing what you say they should. But frankly you can go and be wonderful and cool a very long way from me.

Anyone who can only be happy and feel they exist by insisting and arguing passionately as to why I must accept labels that I find rude, insulting, don't agree with and don't believe in the politics of is just going to have to find some other way to be happy.

Helleofabore · 08/11/2021 15:58

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

but the bare fact remains if you were to send a ballot to everyone in the UK that said "do you like the term CIS" a significant percentage would say WTF is that, I have no idea.

In which case, it is rather impudent to designate millions of people as 'cis' without their knowledge and consent.

It is indeed rather problematic to assume the way that activists have.

That is the point.

I actually know of very few people that fit the 'cis' label. And when the term is explained to them, most people I know think 'What the fuck!'.

It really is like the question in that oft quoted YouGov poll. When the additional facts are added, people who were in agreeance change their answers.

The perception that a small number of people disagree is being upheld by people who have an agenda, whatever that is. Every time we see these posts, the people posting are not regulars from the Sex and Gender board. But those with the agendas will always push that they are.

This replays over and over under social media threads where the word woman is being removed and terms like chest feeding, birth parent, birthing bodies are used. Women who have not actually thought about this react with negativity.

This move to discredit a poll result by posters who hold a prejudiced view as to who is posting, who is voting, is the same tactic used time and time again. There is no attempt to provide evidence to support to use of 'cis' outside of 'kindness' and a fallacy of 'its science'. Just attempts to shame posters and discredit them.

ArabellaScott · 08/11/2021 16:00

the wrong side of history

I think this would make a good band name.

Artichokeleaves · 08/11/2021 16:01

Incidentally really fascinating that whenever women here talk about how much they hate being called 'cis' that the answer is never whatever floats your boat, you do you, use the labels that suit you and live and let live.

There are always those who will rush here to tell those women they must obey, they are so silly and stupid and prejudiced to think for themselves on this, that it's imperative that they do this thing they don't like or agree with for the good of others!

It's like the imperative to get peeing and undressing in mixed sex spaces and sucking up the downsides and ignoring all the excluded women.

This politics seems absolutely stuck on making females do things they don't want and don't like as some major part of the objective. No. Do you and leave me be.

foxgoosefinch · 08/11/2021 16:02

That's not how a discussion works - "just making your own point not dependent on what others want to say" - but it really does explain a lot if you think it does!

Er…that is in fact how a discussion works? People can add their own thoughts to a discussion without you telling them what they are permitted to say.

Good luck to you over there on the wrong side of history

The future right side of history, is that where all discussions are only on your preferred points, and women aren’t allowed to ask any questions in case they are perceived as “aggressive”? Sign me up for that Tardis!

MarshaBradyo · 08/11/2021 16:02

@Artichokeleaves

Why is it a "rude jeering" to point out that the demographics of the people who open a mumsnet thread with a title about how they despise being called cis is in no way representative of the population at large? I'm willing to bet that a huge percentage of them would have no fucking idea what "cis" even is

And to say that the readership of MN is "mostly middle-class" is just a fact based on the actual demographics of the site and it doesn't equal "no working class or rich women ever read MN". Why are people so desperate to put words in my mouth or twist what I've said to make a better strawman to knock down? Why are some of you so offended that I pointed out that MN is a well-known source of Gender Critical discussion? It's a fact. I thought many of you were proud of that. I know I would be, if I shared your views on gender.

I know not everyone understands the basis of argument and logical fallacies but things are getting ridiculous, honestly.

You really can't handle doing this with any kind of civility, or respect for others can you? You couldn't be signalling your perceived superiority any more clearly.

I'm sure you're a lovely, very superior, much cleverer person than me from some demographic that entitles you to sneer at others who don't matter, and to tell over 1000 women how silly they are for not doing what you say they should. But frankly you can go and be wonderful and cool a very long way from me.

Anyone who can only be happy and feel they exist by insisting and arguing passionately as to why I must accept labels that I find rude, insulting, don't agree with and don't believe in the politics of is just going to have to find some other way to be happy.

I agree with this from Artichoke

There seems to be a need to dismiss and belittle any views from women who don’t want the use of ‘cis’.

MyOtherProfile · 08/11/2021 16:03

@bendmeoverbackwards I think that belief of being born in the wrong body comes from this same idea that a female body should lead to stereotyped female behaviour and a male body should lead to stereotyped male behaviour so I think it's the same thing really.

ArabellaScott · 08/11/2021 16:05

Surely if we're all about self definition, self determination and the freedom to describe our own identities then people will support that and respect the - checks poll - 92% of (presumably mostly) women who do not wish to be called cis?

Artichokeleaves · 08/11/2021 16:05

Good luck to you over there on the wrong side of history

If you think the right side of history is forcing women to obey labels and conform to beliefs they disagree with, find oppressive and wrecks womens rights, (and that's only the tip of the iceberg of the major issues with this political position) then you've got a problem.

ArabellaScott · 08/11/2021 16:06

I mean, if 92% of a social group said they found a term offensive, demeaning or 'despised' being called it, I would generally not use that term. Surely that's basic politeness and respect? Or do women not get that privilege?

Blibbyblobby · 08/11/2021 16:08

@Helloise

You are literally DESPERATE to be offended. I've never seen anything like it.

You misunderstand. I am indeed DESPERATE…DESPERATE to ensure that female people - the ones with female bodies - continue to be recognised as a valid political and social group with the right to self assemble, self define, access single sex provisions and speak with a political voice about what female people need.

So if someone’s ideology tells them it is unacceptable for those things to exist then yes, I am offended. But it’s not because I want to be offended, it’s because someone asserting that my lived experience as a person of the female sex is insignificant compared to a male’s self image as a woman is fucking offensive!

I do acknowledge your existence as a person with a DSD. And as long as that overarching principle that female bodies people exist, are valid and have specific challenges that cannot be subsumed into mixed-sex gender identities or provisions is accepted, I have no issue if in the real world implementation of single sex provisions there be individual exceptions for DSDs as long as these are not simply self id, and not because of an aspect of the mind rather than the body.

And to be clear, I can say this precisely because, unlike genderism, my views are not an ideology with tenets of belief that must be followed, but a set of pragmatic principles based on the reality of what female people need to survive and thrive in a sexist society. They are not stone tablets that say “this is how you must live forever”, they are simply what we need to live right now.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 08/11/2021 16:08

Incidentally really fascinating that whenever women here talk about how much they hate being called 'cis' that the answer is never whatever floats your boat, you do you, use the labels that suit you and live and let live.

Yes! And add to that the oft hurled insinuation that GC women deny the existance of, want to eradicate transwomen, occasionally transmen too. All you see from the GC side, should you be bothered to read what is acualy typed, is "OK! Whatever you want, as an adult Enjoy!" As Grace Lavery is currently finding out!

But that never stops the oddly interpreted misinformation being touted and called proof!

Foxandbee · 08/11/2021 16:09

The words of Emma Watson apply here - "people are who they say they are and deserve to live their lives without being constantly questioned or told they aren’t who they say they are".

I am a woman. Not a cis woman. A woman.

bellinisurge · 08/11/2021 16:10

Fuck off with cis. Compelled speech is for totalitarian regimes and cults.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 08/11/2021 16:13

Well! That was succinct Smile

Artichokeleaves · 08/11/2021 16:15

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Incidentally really fascinating that whenever women here talk about how much they hate being called 'cis' that the answer is never whatever floats your boat, you do you, use the labels that suit you and live and let live.

Yes! And add to that the oft hurled insinuation that GC women deny the existance of, want to eradicate transwomen, occasionally transmen too. All you see from the GC side, should you be bothered to read what is acualy typed, is "OK! Whatever you want, as an adult Enjoy!" As Grace Lavery is currently finding out!

But that never stops the oddly interpreted misinformation being touted and called proof!

I'm starting to think this trying to force women into doing something they really don't want to do, against their consent, is an important part and therefore it's meeting needs somehow. Maybe if you can make an unwilling woman accept the words it helps.

But no. I'm not a service human. Its not my job to accept labels and politics I don't agree with so that others can feel better. Not a healthy dynamic in any way at all.

Doubletoilandtrouble · 08/11/2021 16:15

For the record, my friends were not afraid per se. They were of the opinion that a measured email would be better than a shouting match in the headmaster’s office and afraid that the letter would lead to a deteriorating relationship with the school.

I am fascinated by the thought that Muslim parents are more accepting of this but it may be true - even if it hasn’t been my experience. I would love a poll with the question

“would you be happy for your daughter to share a dormitory with a girl with a penis in an upcoming school trip?”.

This could then neatly investigate parents attitudes in general and divide them into various sub pockets based on class and ethnicity.

I am quite happy that this now is widely discussed. Cis hasn’t been getting that much attention before (or anything gender related really) so I think it is great that we all can discuss this as adults.

Once all the issues are known to a majority of the population, and the behaviour of the people holding the various views can be highlighted, maybe we will be able to hold a meaningful vote?

ArabellaScott · 08/11/2021 16:16

In the same way we are forced to accept declaring our pronouns, Artichoke.

Helleofabore · 08/11/2021 16:18

@ArabellaScott

the wrong side of history

I think this would make a good band name.

The best!
Helloise · 08/11/2021 16:19

@Artichokeleaves

Why is it a "rude jeering" to point out that the demographics of the people who open a mumsnet thread with a title about how they despise being called cis is in no way representative of the population at large? I'm willing to bet that a huge percentage of them would have no fucking idea what "cis" even is

And to say that the readership of MN is "mostly middle-class" is just a fact based on the actual demographics of the site and it doesn't equal "no working class or rich women ever read MN". Why are people so desperate to put words in my mouth or twist what I've said to make a better strawman to knock down? Why are some of you so offended that I pointed out that MN is a well-known source of Gender Critical discussion? It's a fact. I thought many of you were proud of that. I know I would be, if I shared your views on gender.

I know not everyone understands the basis of argument and logical fallacies but things are getting ridiculous, honestly.

You really can't handle doing this with any kind of civility, or respect for others can you? You couldn't be signalling your perceived superiority any more clearly.

I'm sure you're a lovely, very superior, much cleverer person than me from some demographic that entitles you to sneer at others who don't matter, and to tell over 1000 women how silly they are for not doing what you say they should. But frankly you can go and be wonderful and cool a very long way from me.

Anyone who can only be happy and feel they exist by insisting and arguing passionately as to why I must accept labels that I find rude, insulting, don't agree with and don't believe in the politics of is just going to have to find some other way to be happy.

Very clever to edit the laughing emoji into "jeering emoticon". Putting words into my mouth and doing exactly what you're accusing me of doing.

I have been completely civil, you just clearly can't recognise it because you have no idea what it means. It doesn't mean sweetly agreeing with everyone in this thread, by the way. I can and I fucking will stand up for myself. I haven't told you to accept a label. I haven't told anyone to. If you think I have, fucking prove it. Quote me saying "you should call yourself cis" or anything that could remotely construed as that. Copy and paste where i have said 1000 women are silly for "not doing what I think they should". All I did with this particular comment was point out that this "poll" is not a representative example of the UK and I explained why not and you KNOW this but (and here, this is where I am explicitly and definitively pointing out a fault that you have, and you are free to take it as an insult) are too obstinate to admit it and all you can do is to build up straw men to completely misrepresent what I said so you could find something to knock down. It's fucking boring and it's not just you, it's a key tactic in the MN gender critical "discourse". You say one thing, (like "people who are xy are always men") then you say you didn't mean it, or that it's not really important after all. You ignore arguments that you don't understand or that you have no response to and instead focus on tone (a classic logical fallacy). You talk about how much you hate "woke" culture and how easily offended people are and then you immediately take offence at absolutely anything you can grab on to just to avoid engaging in a substantive argument.

ArabellaScott · 08/11/2021 16:24

Okay, Helloise. Breathe. Have a cuppa. Brew

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2021 16:25

I'm starting to think this trying to force women into doing something they really don't want to do, against their consent, is an important part and therefore it's meeting needs somehow. Maybe if you can make an unwilling woman accept the words it helps.

But no. I'm not a service human. Its not my job to accept labels and politics I don't agree with so that others can feel better. Not a healthy dynamic in any way at all.

YY.

ArabellaScott · 08/11/2021 16:26

this "poll" is not a representative example of the UK

I would be really interested to see a properly carried out survey of the UK general populace, for their responses on being called 'cis' and being required to use pronouns.

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