To despise being called ‘cis’?

[Ostryga]

I’m not ‘cis’. I’m not ‘cisgendered’. I’m literally a woman. I’ve just read a guardian article that calls women seeking IVF cisgendered.

Why????

Ooh! Did something slip?

@ArabellaScott

Okay, Helloise. Breathe. Have a cuppa.

I can be patronising (matronising?) too, it's what I usually do when I can't think of anything else to say or I don't have an actual rebuttal to something I don't agree with. Feel free to come back and try again once you've organised your thoughts.

Matronising?! Okay, then.

Honestly, I think you sounded like you were getting a bit worked up, I was just saying it might be a good idea to take a step back and chill out.

I am sorry if it came across badly.

Great that this thread is being bumped constantly.

I think the combination of condescending posts and rage on this thread is so sad. And the language is quite unladylike.

A cup of tea is always a good idea

Well, I'm going to have one. And maybe a cheeky mid afternoon snack. Got to keep my matronly figure well buttressed.

Everything looks better with a cup of tea in hand.

@bendmeoverbackwards

Another term I can’t stand - ‘they’ for non binary. They is PLURAL 🤦‍♀️

...no. Incorrect. Singular they is a thing.

Stay mad about it, though.

[tea]

Honestly, I know these are sensitive topics for many of us, but if we can all agree to be respectful and keep the discussion calm then hopefully it might be productive.

So far, I think it's pretty clear that the women of Mumsnet are very much not in favour of being called 'cis'.

Another classic tactic for someone who has lost the upper hand, @HoardingSamphireSaurus- wait until the other person actually displays a bit of passion about the subject, and then sit on your heels and act like you don't ACTUALLY care that much and it's not that deep and try to make them feel foolish for taking it so seriously. Keep it up, it's a master class in what not to do

Bugger, I've spilt my tea.

Helloise, it's clear you are passionate and care deeply about this. I'm sorry you feel upset. What is it you want to communicate, (I haven't RTFT, sorry). Could you precis?

So far, I think it's pretty clear that the women of Mumsnet are very much not in favour of being called 'cis'.

I think the consistency of these threads and polls prove that without a doubt.

However, we have moved from 'all who disagree are just a small group of extremists, to now being categorised into class, age group and race. Again, all clear tactics being used by trans activists when they wish to discredit something.

When they simply cannot provide any evidenced thinking and they need to manipulate people into agreeing with them.

It is very clear when you see it used. And it was never really effective here on MN when it was first deployed.

@Helloise

Another classic tactic for someone who has lost the upper hand, *@HoardingSamphireSaurus*- wait until the other person actually displays a bit of passion about the subject, and then sit on your heels and act like you don't ACTUALLY care that much and it's not that deep and try to make them feel foolish for taking it so seriously. Keep it up, it's a master class in what not to do

Who me? I haven't been flexible enough to sit on my heels for decades.

What you are seeing is women debating without anger. Passionately, informed, determined. But not angry.

As I said before, start your own thread. You now have 2 of us who have asked what it is you want to discuss specifically We aren't being disingenuous. We are interested and would discuss it with you openly, honestly, robustly.

Try it! You might get that discussion you want.

I think it is so nice when women can have a civil, calm and constructive discussion over a cup of tea

@Helloise

Hello. I’m a woman with “the chromosomes of a man”, as you all love to say. There are lots of us. I only found out when I didn’t start puberty normally and I’ve been on HRT my whole life. I have female external sexual organs (though my vagina is quite shallow) and normal looking breasts. I am XY and 100% a woman. Some people like me produce enough estrogen even with the Y chromosome so they go through puberty normally. There are many variations in chromosomes including XY women and XX men and XYX. Many will never know because they look and function as “expected” and there is no reason to ever be tested as they just don’t try to have children or just accept that it doesn’t happen. And even then - there have been cases of XY people with functional uterus/ovaries AND testicular tissue who have had babies.

You can make whatever stupid arguments you want and I know you will but the idea that chromosomes are an infallible indicator of sex OR gender is misinformed and scientifically inaccurate.

I am sorry to hear about your health problems. But what has any of this got to do with transgenderism?

Do you accept that throughout history and today throughout the world, there is one sex class of human who oppresses another sex class of human? And that throughout history, no one ever had any issues with deciding who are the men and who are the women? No one was wringing their hands about chromosomes when deciding who to deny an abortion to, or who to deny an education or a vote to, or who to murder at birth for being female, or who to rape as a weapon of war, or who to deny a promotion to or who to make redundant on maternity leave, or any of the other countless ways that women have suffered. Everyone knew who were the men and who were the women, and they still do.

Women have been shat on from a great height by men for millenia based on nothing but their female biology. And now certain people are saying 'oh but biology is totally irrelevant, you can't tell what anyone's chromosomes really are, what actually matters is how one feels on the inside'.

Do you have any idea how offensive that is?

Do I think we should blithely open all women’s spaces to men? Of course not. But can we facilitate the needs of a small group of society who themselves are persecuted and abused in horrific ways? Yes I think we can - and should.

///

So if not self id then how do we do this? Why should someone who claims to be the same as me whilst biologically completely different to me, be allowed access to my space when "men" are not? Why is a transwoman allowed in but my neighbour Dave isn't?

To accept cis, to embrace TWAW and to change language to make life easier to navigate for a tiny minority, then you must have complete acceptance or anything else will be transphobic. And right there you have a safeguarding catastrophe waiting to happen.

None of us are actually offended, Helloise - only you seem to be. I’m not offended, but you’ve claimed I am then in the next line said others are putting words in your mouth?

Then we have:
you ignore arguments that you don't understand or that you have no response to and instead focus on tone (a classic logical fallacy).

Then next post you’re accusing Arabella of being patronising. You started off by accusing me of being “aggressive” for asking you questions relating to the topic of the thread; then called me “my love” in a patronising way. So who’s focusing on tone here?

You’re coming across as inconsistent, accusing other posters of what you’re doing yourself (classic projection); and really - a bit hysterical. In the essential womanly traits, womanly essence kind of way. Myself, I favour rationality, science and logic: but that’s just the essentially masculine traits in me, I guess.

And it's worth remembering that being "kind" means being truthful.

Lying about reality is not kind. It's actually quite cruel.

Speaking of science and logic.... What ARE the labels for each axis on the sex spectrum please?

@foxgoosefinch

None of us are actually offended, Helloise - only you seem to be. I’m not offended, but you’ve claimed I am then in the next line said others are putting words in your mouth?

Then we have:
you ignore arguments that you don't understand or that you have no response to and instead focus on tone (a classic logical fallacy).

Then next post you’re accusing Arabella of being patronising. You started off by accusing me of being “aggressive” for asking you questions relating to the topic of the thread; then called me “my love” in a patronising way. So who’s focusing on tone here?

You’re coming across as inconsistent, accusing other posters of what you’re doing yourself (classic projection); and really - a bit hysterical. In the essential womanly traits, womanly essence kind of way. Myself, I favour rationality, science and logic: but that’s just the essentially masculine traits in me, I guess.

She was being patronising though! She told me to calm down and have a cup of tea. She was being patronising for effect and I told her where to put it. That's not tone policing, that's just a bit of verbal self defence. Tone policing is "an anti-debate tactic based on criticizing a person for expressing emotion. Tone policing detracts from the truth or falsity of a statement by attacking the tone in which it was presented rather than the message itself." I know who has been doing that, and it's not me.

And anyway you weren't asking me "questions relating to the topic of the thread" in some kind of genuine interest to understand my point of view, and pretending you were is extremely disingenuous.

Britney Spears on the far left and Donald Trump on the far right, and if you’re the (un)/lucky* person at zero then you absolutely have to get this year’s fashionable gender surgery, the Nullification one where they chop all your bits off and sew everything up with just a catheter poking out to wee. It’s the absolutely latest thing:

www.alignsurgical.com/non-binary/nullification/

She was being patronising though! She told me to calm down and have a cup of tea.

I seem to remember you told both foxglove and I to "have a nap" because we dared to disagree with you, Helloise. Forgotten that?

If you are assigned female at birth and see yourself as a woman, you ARE a woman, more specifically a cis woman. That is the definition

Absolutely wrong. If you set up a definition which asks not 'are you a woman' but instead 'do you see yourself as a woman', then most women would say 'I don't see myself as a woman'. The fact that I am not trans does not make me a cis woman. I do not see myself as a woman in any sense that you mean woman. I know I have a woman's body and I know that was caused by my chromosomes. I don't feel like a woman, I don't see myself as a woman, I don't believe I am a woman. There is no definition you can give that makes me identify as a cis woman. People who object to identities being forced on them need to afford others the same respect to others.

I am not a cis woman. You may not like that but if you choose not to accept it, then you are being aggressive to my identity. Get over it.