To despise being called ‘cis’?

[Ostryga]

I’m not ‘cis’. I’m not ‘cisgendered’. I’m literally a woman. I’ve just read a guardian article that calls women seeking IVF cisgendered.

Why????

Can I ask if sex is a spectrum, what are the axes please?

I absolutely have not done that! Seriously, are we speaking the same language?

Oh! I know the answer to that one.

We are all obviously Alice to your Humpty Dumpty.

Our perception, of your words is wrong becasue summink summink - just as our perception of ourselves is wrong if we don't like 'cis'!

Easy!

The axes @Helleofabore?

They are those things that get buried in your back when you take your eye off the 'Be Nice' ball!

I absolutely cannot stand it.

I identify as a woman, was born a woman. I have no need for any other label.

Why do people need to give labels to other people?! If somebody identifies as cis that’s fine but it shouldn’t be placed on others against their wishes.

@Helleofabore

Can I ask if sex is a spectrum, what are the axes please?

Pink and blue isn't it?

@Doubletoilandtrouble

We had gender presentations in school. We have a very large non-English community (middle eastern, Indian and Pakistani). I am not sure if many of them know “cis” is. I can tell you that almost everyone a was enraged by the speech.

I have never seen my friends so angry about anything school related. Funnily enough, many didn’t dare to tell their husbands, they complained to school themselves. They were worried about the extent of anger their husbands would show and what they would do if they found out.

I think the school took the feedback onboard. If not, next year will be…interesting.

And an anecdote of my own, I work with people from India, China, Indonesia, and Pakistan every day and many of them have pronouns on their email sigs and one woman from India is proudly transgender. I'm more worried about the fact that they were "afraid to tell their husbands" and "worried about the extent of their anger/what they would do" than anything else. I'm amazed that what you took away from this isn't "these women are scared of their husbands" but rather "these women sure do hate gender ideology"

@beastlyslumber

Why is it a "rude jeering" to point out that the demographics of the people who open a mumsnet thread with a title about how they despise being called cis is in no way representative of the population at large? I'm willing to bet that a huge percentage of them would have no fucking idea what "cis" even is

WOW. So you are saying that the majority of people who voted don't know what they're even voting on? And then you complain on being called out for your rudeness?

@Helloise Apologies, I think I misunderstood you there. You're not insulting MNers. You're insulting women not on MN, assuming they are too ignorant to be able to understand the terms of the debate.

I stand by the WOW. As we say around here, did you mean to be so rude?

beastlyslumber

DSDs are incredibly rare but they don't mean that biological sex is a spectrum. Same as someone being born with six fingers or one leg doesn't mean that humans have a spectrum of limbs or appendage numbers.

Some years ago now, I was at a mother and babies session where the leader was reading 10 Little Fingers and 10 Little Toes. I reflexively looked round to see if anyone was going to complain she was excluding mothers of babies born with a sixth finger or toe!

At that point, I realised how toxic online discourse was getting.

This is the book being read aloud

and this is the goodreads page, which is full of reviews complaining that it excludes babies born with additional fingers or toes!
www.goodreads.com/book/show/3124179-ten-little-fingers-and-ten-little-toes

[quote Helloise]@Ereshkigalangcleg I expended several hundred words and quite a bit of my time on detailed arguments and explanations in good faith and was basically called a liar by the person who I took the time to reply to. Feel free to go back and read what I wrote if you would like. I'm entitled to my own health history and to my own understanding of my own identity, whether or not you or the rest of your compatriots like it. People here REPEATEDLY said that XY=Man and that chromosomes determine sex and I think I quite clearly explained why that isn't fucking true. But I'm nothing more than a freak, an exception, an anomaly. I don't accept that. I don't have to fucking accept it.

I'm not going to play sweetie-pie with someone who treats me like shit nor will I play sweetie-pie with you, who supports her. Have a great day after your nap.[/quote]
Thanks for sharing your perspective on this Helloise.

I don't think anyone thinks you are a freak or that people with your condition are not women. I think the point is that often people with DSDs are conflated with trans identities which as you point out, are very different.

@TheViewFromTheCheapSeats

What fucks me of is I am a woman. A woman, who like many women, doesn’t neatly fit into the daft ‘cis ’ stereotype of a woman. I’m still a bloody woman though, 100% unquestionably so. My interests and dress, if we are making a binary choice, often fit better the ‘male’ stereotypes out there. I’m not male in anyway though. I am a variety of woman. I object though being linked to a narrow and often vapid view of what a woman must be like.

Exactly. Personality, personal taste and stereotypes don't make someone a man or a woman

@beastlyslumber no I fucking am not calling anyone thick. Most people aren't on twitter, aren't on MN, aren't involved in gender critical vs. TRA debate. That's not insulting to say that. It's just a fact. I'm talking about my own parents, some of my own friends. There are many people who don't know what "cis" means. They would understand if it were explained to them, and they might have an opinion at that point, but the bare fact remains if you were to send a ballot to everyone in the UK that said "do you like the term CIS" a significant percentage would say WTF is that, I have no idea.

You are literally DESPERATE to be offended. I've never seen anything like it.

And in my experience it's at the point that they looked it up to find out what they were signing up for that they would say "fuck no".

Itsanewdah

Literally no one has told you you don't have a right to exist or to define yourself however you please so stop making things up. I will respect your identity but I will not tolerate being defined by someone else or told how to define myself. Respect cuts both ways, don't expect any if you're not willing to show it in return.

No one is assigned anything at birth. Sex is determined at conception, observed and recorded at birth.

You are literally DESPERATE to be offended. I've never seen anything like it.

Read back your own posts, maybe?

You are literally DESPERATE to be offended. I've never seen anything like it.

Sadly we have! All too often.

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]beastlyslumber

DSDs are incredibly rare but they don't mean that biological sex is a spectrum. Same as someone being born with six fingers or one leg doesn't mean that humans have a spectrum of limbs or appendage numbers.

Some years ago now, I was at a mother and babies session where the leader was reading 10 Little Fingers and 10 Little Toes. I reflexively looked round to see if anyone was going to complain she was excluding mothers of babies born with a sixth finger or toe!

At that point, I realised how toxic online discourse was getting.

This is the book being read aloud

and this is the goodreads page, which is full of reviews complaining that it excludes babies born with additional fingers or toes!
www.goodreads.com/book/show/3124179-ten-little-fingers-and-ten-little-toes[/quote]
About 1 in 1,000 people are born with an extra finger according to the NHS.

You are literally DESPERATE to be offended. I've never seen anything like it.

I'm not offended in the slightest @Helloise. Okay, I am slightly offended at you trying to gaslight people into believing you didn't say what you actually said. Because that's just not cool. We can read. You made yourself quite clear, laughing face emoji and all.

But no, it's all good. We are used to robust debate on MN, so if you have any, feel free to bring it.

About 1 in 1,000 people are born with an extra finger according to the NHS. Making all those of us with fingers bone fide witches

@Ereshkigalangcleg

And in my experience it's at the point that they looked it up to find out what they were signing up for that they would say "fuck no".

OK? Maybe that's true, maybe not. But that is not the point. Why are you moving the goalposts? I was accused of calling people "thick" because of the straightforward statement that the term "cisgender" isn't part of the daily vocabulary of everyone. Lots of people wouldn't know what it was without an explanation. Therefore, if the poll in this thread were put out to everyone in the UK, lots of people would say "what's that"?

That's all. That's it.

I hate it too!

Why are you moving the goalposts?

I'm just making a comment on a fast moving thread. Not moving any goalposts. Just making my own point, which doesn't depend on what you want to say.

but the bare fact remains if you were to send a ballot to everyone in the UK that said "do you like the term CIS" a significant percentage would say WTF is that, I have no idea.

In which case, it is rather impudent to designate millions of people as 'cis' without their knowledge and consent.

Why are you moving the goalposts? From where?

The thread has moved away from the OPs initial question. We are now spending time and effort responding to you and the ideas you have introduced.

Which post would you like us all to go back to?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

but the bare fact remains if you were to send a ballot to everyone in the UK that said "do you like the term CIS" a significant percentage would say WTF is that, I have no idea.

In which case, it is rather impudent to designate millions of people as 'cis' without their knowledge and consent.

It was much the same with other polls. Like the one that included a question about transwomen in women's toilets. Many people said yes, of course. Then a second poll explained that transwomen are men who want to be seen as women not women who are trans... the majority then said no, of course not!

Obfuscation just means you are more likely to encounter GIGO!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Why are you moving the goalposts?

I'm just making a comment on a fast moving thread. Not moving any goalposts. Just making my own point, which doesn't depend on what you want to say.

That's not how a discussion works - "just making your own point not dependent on what others want to say" - but it really does explain a lot if you think it does! Good luck to you over there on the wrong side of history x