To despise being called ‘cis’?

[Ostryga]

I’m not ‘cis’. I’m not ‘cisgendered’. I’m literally a woman. I’ve just read a guardian article that calls women seeking IVF cisgendered.

Why????

@Itsanewdah

I despise having people tell me that I have no right to exist and that my identity is not valid (often in very aggressive tones). I also despise being told that gender is only biology (mumsnet is literally the proof that there is a ton more to it than that). If you are assigned female at birth and see yourself as a woman, you ARE a woman, more specifically a cis woman. That is the definition. I am assigned female at birth but do NOT see myself as a woman. I’m not a woman of any description, i’m nonbinary. A good friend was assigned male at birth, sees herself as a woman. She is a woman, more specifically a trans woman.

Yes woman and trans woman. No need for the cis.

who don't think the views of other members of their sex are as relevant as those of males.
Neither gender nor sex have anything to do with relevance or intelligence. I would never discriminate against people based on sex or gender. invalidating an opinion because of the sex or gender of a person is discrimination.

@wincarwoo both are woman. just with different life stories. so “woman” means any woman.

Yes, that was my point, but I don't believe in "gender" as a thing beyond social constructs based on sex stereotypes. Sexism is about sex.

Sex: biological reality. Gender identity: a hypothetical idea of an innate essence which some people consider more important than biological reality.

I’m off to the school run, but welcome to AIBU, Helloise and any others who feel upset they are being asked questions about gender identity after inserting themselves to pontificate on a thread specifically on gender identity.

You feel offended now? You are getting a very polite easy ride. Try posting that someone is parking outside your house or you can’t be bothered to neuter your cat, and just see the responses you get then. Enjoy!

What do people with congenital conditions of sexual development (whatever the frequency) have to do with people experiencing gender dysphoria? A significant subset of the latter are middle-aged males with children, wishing to live as opposite sex in later life, such as Gabbi Alon Tuft, the retired WWE wrestler. They're not people with CCSDs and the attendant medical issues, including infertility.

Are we going to bring in people with other congenital conditions?

Itsanewdah, nobody is telling you or your friend what to think about yourself or what to call yourselves. Knock yourselves out.

Most people here object to you telling us what to think about ourselves and what to call ourselves. Can you really not see this?

[quote Itsanewdah]@wincarwoo both are woman. just with different life stories. so “woman” means any woman.[/quote]
In what way is a man a woman? These words have meanings.

You haven't been treated nastily at all @Helloise. You posted something off-topic, someone challenged you to answer questions that were relevant to the thread, and then you started complaining that women were being aggressive and that MN is an echo chamber.

Got to say that if you think MN is an echo chamber, you've not been around here much!

DSDs are incredibly rare but they don't mean that biological sex is a spectrum. Same as someone being born with six fingers or one leg doesn't mean that humans have a spectrum of limbs or appendage numbers.

@Itsanewdah who has told you that you don't have a right to exist? That's just nonsense.

Secondly, can I ask you, seeing as you believe that gender is assigned at birth. If gender is a "sense of self or identity" how can a doctor assign a gender to a newborn baby?

@crowsfeet57

The suffragettes must be turning in their graves. We can vote but our safe spaces are being eroded, men can use women's toilets and changing rooms without censure and now even the noun that has described us since time began is being taken from us.

Why isn't anyone fighting this?

Why are we meekly accepting it?

If self id comes in we can’t vote either, not as a group, not as ‘women’.

There will be no way to measure and assess how ‘women’ vote because women becomes a group that includes men and excludes some women. So we can’t ever assess which party meets the needs of the female electorate. And we can’t form groups to lobby the government about how they aren’t meeting the needs of female electorate, because those groups will forever include men and exclude some women.

So women can vote, but never again on women’s issues.

@Artichokeleaves

The idea that you can get an honest assessment of how ALL women feel

Oh don't be so silly.

Right here, over a thousand women have said they don't like it or want it. Why are you rushing to make all kinds of rude jeerings to dismiss that and make clear they don't matter?

Why is it a "rude jeering" to point out that the demographics of the people who open a mumsnet thread with a title about how they despise being called cis is in no way representative of the population at large? I'm willing to bet that a huge percentage of them would have no fucking idea what "cis" even is 😂

And to say that the readership of MN is "mostly middle-class" is just a fact based on the actual demographics of the site and it doesn't equal "no working class or rich women ever read MN". Why are people so desperate to put words in my mouth or twist what I've said to make a better strawman to knock down? Why are some of you so offended that I pointed out that MN is a well-known source of Gender Critical discussion? It's a fact. I thought many of you were proud of that. I know I would be, if I shared your views on gender.

I know not everyone understands the basis of argument and logical fallacies but things are getting ridiculous, honestly.

[quote Itsanewdah]@wincarwoo both are woman. just with different life stories. so “woman” means any woman.[/quote]
Hahahaha. No it doesn't. Men are not women just because they say they are.

I would love to engage with people who have cogent arguments and are actually, genuinely open to the chance that they might be wrong or that they might learn something. I LOVE it when I learn something (once I get over the sting of being wrong, at least, LOL). One thing I've never seen once in any of these threads is anyone who is genuinely open to discussion and argument - it's an echo chamber and anyone who doesn't agree is treated as nastily as I have been, or usually much worse. At least that I've seen. Maybe there have been a hundred great debates with decent people being decent to each other that I've just happened to miss.

So, you want to discuss, but only if those responding are utterly pleasant, whilst you, of course, can continue with the 'echo chamber' 'decent people' ' don't fence me in ()' etc.

The one thing most women here are still waiting for is someone who believes the gender ideology to come and debate in good faith, without the heated "I am X, don't you dare tell me summink, summink" approach.

This is 'an echo chamber' for a number of reasons

• it is one of the few spaces online women can discuss this topic without their posts being moderated into oblivion.
• many people who object that arrive, are rude and get moderated
• others arrive, lay down their reality and emand we all believe it, and then get upset when they are met with a long line of "No thank. We'd rather discuss it, no matter how long that discussion take"
• many who post against GC understanding then get a bit upset and start throwing round terms like echo chamber, bullying, barrage of replies intended to bury dissent etc etc.

If you want to discuss your specific isues with posters who want to engage, start a thread of your own. I, for one, will keep an eye out for it. An in depth discussion on whatever it is you are actually annoyed about. I'll do that, rather than hijack OPs thread that is specificaly about women and their reaction to the term 'cis'.

[quote Blueskip]@Itsanewdah who has told you that you don't have a right to exist? That's just nonsense.

Secondly, can I ask you, seeing as you believe that gender is assigned at birth. If gender is a "sense of self or identity" how can a doctor assign a gender to a newborn baby?[/quote]
I was just about to post these same questions. What makes you think a gender was assigned to you at birth? I've never heard of gender being assigned by a doctor except in rare cases of DSD - and in those cases that doesn't happen now. In DSD cases, as far as I understand, sex is determined through chromosomal testing.

So what do you mean when you say "gender assigned at birth"? When, how and why does that happen?

I despise having people tell me that I have no right to exist

I very much doubt any one had says you don't have a right to exist. They may however not feel inclined to indulge your view of yourself. And why should they? You don't seem inclined to acknowledge the view that the vast majority of women have of themselves.

Why is it a "rude jeering" to point out that the demographics of the people who open a mumsnet thread with a title about how they despise being called cis is in no way representative of the population at large? I'm willing to bet that a huge percentage of them would have no fucking idea what "cis" even is

Wow, and you follow up the dismissing on women on this thread, with a dismissal of all the non-“middle class” population, who you’ve basically just suggested are thick and have no idea what the “middle classes” discuss?

Just. Wow.

I'm willing to bet that a huge percentage of them would have no fucking idea what "cis" even is

Well yes, so you can't imply they're ok with it. Always better to check how people identify before giving them controversial and disputed labels, as I'm sure you agree.

But this is AIBU, and the OP despises it, as is her right, as do many women on Mumsnet who are more informed about this issue than the general population.

*of

Why is it a "rude jeering" to point out that the demographics of the people who open a mumsnet thread with a title about how they despise being called cis is in no way representative of the population at large? I'm willing to bet that a huge percentage of them would have no fucking idea what "cis" even is

WOW. So you are saying that the majority of people who voted don't know what they're even voting on? And then you complain on being called out for your rudeness?

Why are some of you so offended that I pointed out that MN is a well-known source of Gender Critical discussion? It's a fact. Except that isn't what you actually said. With or without the crying smiley face. You chose to couch that in a jeering, negative manner. You know you did, don't back off just because you fear you might have come across a bit rude. You were, we can all read it. And we are still here, replying to you. We haven't melted...

@foxgoosefinch

Why is it a "rude jeering" to point out that the demographics of the people who open a mumsnet thread with a title about how they despise being called cis is in no way representative of the population at large? I'm willing to bet that a huge percentage of them would have no fucking idea what "cis" even is

Wow, and you follow up the dismissing on women on this thread, with a dismissal of all the non-“middle class” population, who you’ve basically just suggested are thick and have no idea what the “middle classes” discuss?

Just. Wow.

I absolutely have not done that! Seriously, are we speaking the same language? How is saying that middle class women exist and read mumsnet dismissive? How is it calling someone thick to state the fact that many people aren't involved in this debate and have never heard the term Cis? I think you must be a yoga teacher because you are demonstrating some amazing stretches!

@Itsanewdah

I despise having people tell me that I have no right to exist and that my identity is not valid (often in very aggressive tones). I also despise being told that gender is only biology (mumsnet is literally the proof that there is a ton more to it than that). If you are assigned female at birth and see yourself as a woman, you ARE a woman, more specifically a cis woman. That is the definition. I am assigned female at birth but do NOT see myself as a woman. I’m not a woman of any description, i’m nonbinary. A good friend was assigned male at birth, sees herself as a woman. She is a woman, more specifically a trans woman.

I also despise being told that gender is only biology (mumsnet is literally the proof that there is a ton more to it than that).

Ok, would you agree that sex is biology?

We had gender presentations in school. We have a very large non-English community (middle eastern, Indian and Pakistani). I am not sure if many of them know “cis” is. I can tell you that almost everyone a was enraged by the speech.

I have never seen my friends so angry about anything school related. Funnily enough, many didn’t dare to tell their husbands, they complained to school themselves. They were worried about the extent of anger their husbands would show and what they would do if they found out.

I think the school took the feedback onboard. If not, next year will be…interesting.