To despise being called ‘cis’?

[Ostryga]

I’m not ‘cis’. I’m not ‘cisgendered’. I’m literally a woman. I’ve just read a guardian article that calls women seeking IVF cisgendered.

Why????

The aggression of being told what you are or having your sex (man) explained to you is a very male trait.
That's what cis does.
It's a form of erasure.
Which is where we used to be - invisible. We've had the vote for less than 100 years.

Trans women do exist. They are indeed a subset of women.

In what sense? How is this a meaningful statement? What criteria are you using for "trans woman"?

Oversized paisley in browns and creams in a very particular fabric that was given to static sparks... :)

Yes. I remember similar. :)

Trans women do exist. They are indeed a subset of women.

A subset of men you mean. What with their chromosomes being that of a man.

But let's be honest GC posters don't want an actual debate

How do you work that one out? GC posters don't agree with genderist posters, but they are making a case for it! No one on your side of things has actually given anything, it's just "I believe in gender and that's the word you use" well that's nice but why?

@Wannakisstheteacher

Trans women do exist. They are indeed a subset of women.

A subset of men you mean. What with their chromosomes being that of a man.

And their male bodies, which will never - and can never - be female bodies.

Yeah - if there is something that GC posters are absolutely up for, it’s a debate. There are oceans of angry articulate GC women posting all the time on MN desperate to debate, and I’ve seen very few gender ideologists who don’t just plop their inconsistent arguments down, then give up and run away

Heterosexual’ can be a gender-based term

No it can't. It refers to a male and a female. It has nothing to do with "gender".

The problem is that people who are 110% certain they're right don't want to debate. I mean, I can't imagine anybody wanting to seriously debate the merits of the Third Reich and whether non-caucasians should get equal rights.

I do lean towards GC btw, but am just giving an extreme example that most people will be able to relate to.

AlfonsoTheUnrepentant

Wannakisstheteacher
Trans women do exist. They are indeed a subset of women.

A subset of men you mean. What with their chromosomes being that of a man.
And their male bodies, which will never - and can never - be female bodies.

And that. I’m sick of living in fantasy land. If you have a penis you are not a woman. End of. Even if you cut it off you are still not a woman because you are a man genetically. Rachel Dosezal was totally vilified but Laurel Hubbard is NZ woman of the year. No thanks.

I'm left wondering how not be "all mechanistic" about the sexual dimorphism if human beings.

Does it mean that when the thoughts and wants of an individual differ from their biological reality we dismiss that reality because, 'mechanisms'!?!?

That's what leads to the lady-penis isn't it? It isn't the actuality of the organ but the ineffable internal ponderings of the mind chained to it by invidious biology.

Again @thatonehasalittlecar I'd ask you to set aside the ideology and consider the real life ramifications, too many of which (often referred to as 'things that never happen') are already happening, multiple times.

Look passed/around the desire to be accommodating, to understand the issues of some men... see the effect that accommodation has on the safety, dignity of some women.

Ask yourself how many women are you OK with seeing being hurt, disadvantaged, set upon by ideologues?

Hello. I’m a woman with “the chromosomes of a man”, as you all love to say. There are lots of us. I only found out when I didn’t start puberty normally and I’ve been on HRT my whole life. I have female external sexual organs (though my vagina is quite shallow) and normal looking breasts. I am XY and 100% a woman. Some people like me produce enough estrogen even with the Y chromosome so they go through puberty normally. There are many variations in chromosomes including XY women and XX men and XYX. Many will never know because they look and function as “expected” and there is no reason to ever be tested as they just don’t try to have children or just accept that it doesn’t happen. And even then - there have been cases of XY people with functional uterus/ovaries AND testicular tissue who have had babies.

You can make whatever stupid arguments you want and I know you will but the idea that chromosomes are an infallible indicator of sex OR gender is misinformed and scientifically inaccurate.

[quote Newwallpaint]@Lammysaurus on nearly all the other threads in aibu there seems to be an effort to engage in a good faith debate. This thread is an extension of the echo chamber in the sex and gender discussion. If GC posters want to get together and talk about how terrible they think certain terms are, that's fine - there is a whole section of the site for it. But let's be honest GC posters don't want an actual debate (and that's fine, that's their prerogative), so why put this thread in aibu?[/quote]
That was quite the reach there Newwallpaint.

I think the definition of echo chamber is to only read, listen or interact with people of the same opinion as you. I have rarely seen a regular on the board you are referring to as an echo chamber as not actually reading widely and interacting regularly with people and opinions that challenge them. Posters are regularly challenged to provide evidence to support their opinions on both sides of arguments on that board.

In my experience, it is people who wish to exist in an echo chamber that constantly admonish those posters on 'Sex and Gender' for their opinions, not the other way around. It seems to be projection to call that board an echo chamber.

Do you consider yourself trans or nonbinary then @Helloise, and are you fully happy with gender ideology and the use of cis and all of that? Happy as someone with a VSD that you are part of the trans umbrella, demonstrate that sex is a spectrum and so on? Can we call you trans? Or cis? And you don’t mind whichever one? Do you think men who don’t have a DSD but say they feel like women should go in your identity box?

I just pointed out that it's not just trans allies throwing around death threats on the internet

By a large majority it is. Don't be disingenuous. Would you like some of the tens of thousands of examples? I've got lots.

There have only been around 500 cases of the true ovotesticular disorder you mention ever recorded, @Helloise, and the majority had no functioning penis. Can you tell us exactly how this should be taken as undermining the whole of humanity’s historical chromosomal makeup? Should we be marking all loos as unisex as a result?

It's a bit like the Netflix Dave Chapelle thing. Several white males getting to claim they are 'more oppessed' than a black man, because of how they feel inside, in some kind of oppression Olympics.

The two MTF trans people who kicked off the Chapelle furore at Netflix which resulted in people being assaulted by Antifa and trans activists are both extremely questionable individuals.

But the answer is not to shit on other people, it is to fight for justice for all.

Who here is really shitting on who? I don't care what males do as long as they a) acknowledge that they are male and we are not the same sex, and that sex sometimes matters b) respect my privacy and dignity.

You have misunderstood the meaning of "cis"

We've had multiple definitions of the word on this thread alone, so it's hardly surprising that people don't agree what it means.

@thatonehasalittlecar

But the use in this article is to make it clear that they are talking about heterosexual couples encompassing a man & a woman that were born as such.

It’s a way of differentiating between the gay / single women named in the law suit, and the people who they say get a better deal from the CCG (the hetero ‘cis’ couple).

There’s a good reason for the use of the term cis in this case, so yeah, YABU.

This is a poor explanation.

Because, a heterosexual couple may not be 'cis' at all. They may identify as not being 'cis'. In which case, they are not 'cis' by current standards.

There are also trans people who have declared themselves to be cis.

@Sladurche

There are literally five biological markers that go to make you female or male sex. Some people don't tick all the boxes for one sex or the other. What gender you are then assigned at birth and brought up as usually depends on what you most closely resemble. No-one is brought up intersex or genderless; even though 2% of the population is neither biologically male or female. Gender is an entirely social construct- it is whether you fit with society's expectations of what women should be. Most feminists agree that the experience of being brought up as a woman defines how society treats you as a person. Identifying as a woman is because you have been brought up that way. You have expectations and training. Just like you may identify as being British, or middle-class. It's an experience, a way of being. Some people don't agree with the gender they have been assigned and brought up as. Gender dysmorphia is a very real condition. The only way to help with this condition is transition. The more you "other" trans people and say they aren't women, the more you make them different, the more you shape the way society sees them. It does not help trans people, it just makes them more unsafe. That's not a "theory" - that's observable, scientific fact. "Cis" is just a technical term. It's someone whose identity and assignation matches their biological sex. Those who get offended by it are putting their own illogical and unscientific bias towards it.

Oh my good god. Why can't people understand that there can be no matching if you have no gender identity. I can't think of anything more illogical than building an argument in such an inaccurate foundation.

@Helloise

Hello. I’m a woman with “the chromosomes of a man”, as you all love to say. There are lots of us. I only found out when I didn’t start puberty normally and I’ve been on HRT my whole life. I have female external sexual organs (though my vagina is quite shallow) and normal looking breasts. I am XY and 100% a woman. Some people like me produce enough estrogen even with the Y chromosome so they go through puberty normally. There are many variations in chromosomes including XY women and XX men and XYX. Many will never know because they look and function as “expected” and there is no reason to ever be tested as they just don’t try to have children or just accept that it doesn’t happen. And even then - there have been cases of XY people with functional uterus/ovaries AND testicular tissue who have had babies.

You can make whatever stupid arguments you want and I know you will but the idea that chromosomes are an infallible indicator of sex OR gender is misinformed and scientifically inaccurate.

I don't think anyone ever said infallabile but for 99,99999% of humans it is a very good indicator which has worked well since forever in denying women and girls the same opportunities and rights as men and boys. And DSD also has zilch to do with self identification of transgender individuals. So let's drop this as an argument to say there are no sex differences between men and women, shall we?

“Ereshkigalangcleg

That then makes me wonder if I’m holding on to the power (a bit like men do when challenged on misogyny or racists do when challenged eg All lives matter). This has given me lots of food for thought.”

“Do you really think women as a class have more power than this group of male people?“
I agree.
What about the power of the so called “first female four star admiral” of the US who transitioned aged 54?

The power of the winner of the women’s litererary prize who was a trans woman?

Or the power of male bodied athletes competing and winning against women?

Or the power of the trans boy who went into the girls lavatories in Brazil, pulled an objecting girl out by her hair, beat her and stamped on her and who could only be pulled off by a more powerful male as a whole bevy of girls around her had not been strong enough?

The power of one of the few ‘female’ judges in the U.K. who had a successful career in a male dominated world as a male for years before? She may be a good judge among a class of people who are judges, or even a token woman perhaps, but what claim has she to be categorised as a female who won through in spite of all the odds?

Ah, I see the problem. You believe that the old-fashioned stereotypes have some merit or accuracy. Feminists don't.

Do you think feminists do believe in sex role stereotypes? That appears to be what you're cross about.

Sorry that was to @thatonehasalittlecar