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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To despise being called ‘cis’?

999 replies

Ostryga · 07/11/2021 19:50

I’m not ‘cis’. I’m not ‘cisgendered’. I’m literally a woman. I’ve just read a guardian article that calls women seeking IVF cisgendered.

Why????

OP posts:
Helloise · 08/11/2021 13:17

@foxgoosefinch

Do you consider yourself trans or nonbinary then *@Helloise*, and are you fully happy with gender ideology and the use of cis and all of that? Happy as someone with a VSD that you are part of the trans umbrella, demonstrate that sex is a spectrum and so on? Can we call you trans? Or cis? And you don’t mind whichever one? Do you think men who don’t have a DSD but say they feel like women should go in your identity box?
I absolutely don't owe you any answers to these aggressive questions, my love, but as I'm feeling generous, I'll answer a couple.

I don't mind cis and I think it applies to me (as I consider my sex to be female, and I was assigned female on my birth certificate and have been perceived as female throughout my life). I am, therefore, clearly not trans, and if you read my post before going wild with your silly gotcha questions, you will see that I say I am "100% a woman" and therefore, not nonbinary.

So, no, you may not call me transgender - not because I am offended by the term or think it's a bad thing to be, but just because it's not who I am.

Yes, sex can be a spectrum. I know of an intersex person through an online support group I'm part of who has what would be considered a small, feminine body with natural breasts as well as facial hair and indeterminate but more male "looking" genitals. If that doesn't indicate a physical spectrum of sex, then I don't know what does. There are lots of other people who aren't classically intersex but display other variations in secondary sex characteristics. Very tall women with broad shoulders who put on muscle easily and demonstrate high levels of natural testosterone. Small, slight men with high voices who have lower levels of testosterone. It's not all about "penis or vagina". I wouldn't be surprised if a "Spectrum" of sex were far more accepted and better understood if more people ended up being tested for hormones and/or chromosomes. But most people don't. They just get on with their lives because it doesn't cause any specific health issues (or they are one of the billions of people in the world who can't afford basic health care, much less hormone testing and treatment).

And your final question, well, it's not possible for me to answer because I don't think that "men who don't have a DSD but say they feel like women" exist. I think that women exist, and that trans women are women, and I think that nonbinary people exist and nonbinary people are nonbinary. And of course men exist and trans men are men. And I find the term "identity box" really weird. Why do you want to put people in boxes so desperately?

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 08/11/2021 13:19

It doesn't matter what word games people play with the concept of cis, it still does not describe the vast majority of women who have no gender identity and don't see themselves as happy to be a woman in any way other than accepting their biology. It cannot respectfully be used to describe women who don't identify with it.

To those who think toy can be a feminist whilst believing that stereotypes about women have some validity, can you explain how? Cab you also explain what are the attributes that are essential to be welcomed into the class of women?

foxgoosefinch · 08/11/2021 13:21

Sorry, I’m clearly not displaying my feminine traits today, ”my love” - asking questions in a thread set up for debate is clearly too “aggressive” (masculine?) of me. You have such a “masculine” style yourself (calm down dear!) that we can be totally convinced of your feminine characteristics! Grin

loislovesstewie · 08/11/2021 13:22

To be awkward, I shall not engage with anyone who refers to me as 'cis'. If I can tell others my pronouns I can make that choice too.

foxgoosefinch · 08/11/2021 13:22

And your final question, well, it's not possible for me to answer because I don't think that "men who don't have a DSD but say they feel like women" exist. I think that women exist, and that trans women are women, and I think that nonbinary people exist and nonbinary people are nonbinary. And of course men exist and trans men are men. And I find the term "identity box" really weird. Why do you want to put people in boxes so desperately?

Oh my Lord. I’m busy this afternoon though so I gotta hand you over, “my love” ❤️

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 08/11/2021 13:24

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Ah, I see the problem. You believe that the old-fashioned stereotypes have some merit or accuracy. Feminists don't.

Do you think feminists do believe in sex role stereotypes? That appears to be what you're cross about.

I think they believe that there are stereotypes which entrench inequity rather than stereotypes being an accurate reflection of womanlyness. As some women are affected more or differently to others than these stereotypes, there therefore is nothing that covers women other than biology. For some people experiences of the type of oppressions directed towards people who grew up female is also an area of commonality but that does not mean that people who had different experiences are not women. This comment was in response to a poster who said it was disingenuous to state a belief that there is no such thing as woman beyond biology.
foxgoosefinch · 08/11/2021 13:26

Yes, sex can be a spectrum. I know of an intersex person through an online support group I'm part of who has what would be considered a small, feminine body with natural breasts as well as facial hair and indeterminate but more male "looking" genitals. If that doesn't indicate a physical spectrum of sex, then I don't know what does. There are lots of other people who aren't classically intersex but display other variations in secondary sex characteristics. Very tall women with broad shoulders who put on muscle easily and demonstrate high levels of natural testosterone.

Before I go though, I find it really difficult to imagine someone with a DSD affecting fertility who really believes that’s just on a spectrum with being a “very tall woman with broad shoulders”, though I suppose it’s not inconceivable. Pardon the pun.

Helloise · 08/11/2021 13:26

@sanluca where do you get your numbers on "99,99999% of humans it is a very good indicator" because I don't think that's accurate. I think the actual numbers are one in 6,000 or so, and that's just those for whom it's physically obvious due to their genital formation, or who find out when they undergo treatment for fertility (or in my case, when puberty doesn't start). Many if not most people with chromosome differences or hormone variations never find out, because they never come up against it, or they are one of the billions of people in the world who don't have the luxury of fertility treatment or hormone treatment for puberty issues.

You are incredibly dismissive of an experience and understanding of the world that is not your own. People use the "WeLL WoMEN CaN'T be xY" argument in these threads including this one CONSTANTLY and when I point out that it's not accurate or relevant, I get responses like yours. You can't fucking have it both ways. You can't use my chromosomes for your arguments and then tell me it's not actually relevant when I point out you're wrong. Sorry.

KittenKong · 08/11/2021 13:27

Sex isn’t a spectrum. There are some incredible rare people with variations on the XX XY but that is very rare. People who have DSD are male or female. Not some mythical creature that is neither Janet or John.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2021 13:28

Yes, many people don't know that not everyone is XY or XX. No, disorders of sex development don't change the fact that humans are sexually dimorphic and there are only two sexes.

foxgoosefinch · 08/11/2021 13:29

And for the last time:

A spectrum is continuous variation. It is not the opposite of a binary.

Something may not be a simple binary but that does not mean it is therefore a spectrum.

There are around 24 positions in this table but that makes them 24 different discrete possible positions. It does not make them a spectrum. PLEASE look up spectrum in a dictionary.

To despise being called ‘cis’?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2021 13:30

And that the vast majority of MTF trans people are perfectly typical XY males.

milkyaqua · 08/11/2021 13:31

Fucking hell...

Meanwhile, I despise being called 'cis'. A term used by smug trendy tossers.

Helloise · 08/11/2021 13:32

@foxgoosefinch

Yes, sex can be a spectrum. I know of an intersex person through an online support group I'm part of who has what would be considered a small, feminine body with natural breasts as well as facial hair and indeterminate but more male "looking" genitals. If that doesn't indicate a physical spectrum of sex, then I don't know what does. There are lots of other people who aren't classically intersex but display other variations in secondary sex characteristics. Very tall women with broad shoulders who put on muscle easily and demonstrate high levels of natural testosterone.

Before I go though, I find it really difficult to imagine someone with a DSD affecting fertility who really believes that’s just on a spectrum with being a “very tall woman with broad shoulders”, though I suppose it’s not inconceivable. Pardon the pun.

I think it's telling that rather than arguing in good faith, you decide you're "too busy" and drop a nasty little turd of a comment to imply I'm a liar on your "way out".

Have a lovely afternoon!

foxgoosefinch · 08/11/2021 13:33

You want to patronise women by calling them “my love”, but you don’t like tones you don’t like? Well that’s an strange one!

Blibbyblobby · 08/11/2021 13:33

@thatonehasalittlecar

As for those conflating the use of cis in a very specific way in this argument with predators raping women in prisons - do fuck off. We can be more nuanced in our navigation of this issue. Do I think we should blithely open all women’s spaces to men? Of course not. But can we facilitate the needs of a small group of society who themselves are persecuted and abused in horrific ways? Yes I think we can - and should.

I am extremely uncomfortable with (for example) self-certification being open to abuse but we need to work on ways to prevent this whilst still acknowledging that there are people who need support with their identity as it relates to their position in the world.

But the genderist assertion that Woman is a mixed-sex group that splits down into cis (female) and trans (male) woman is fundamentally against the types of exceptions you have laid out here. Do you see that?

In practical terms, you don't need to say a trans woman IS a type of woman to support and proect her. You can achieve exactly the same thing by saying she's a type of man who needs special treatment. Or if calling her a man is too distressing, you could explore some of the third sex / two spirit concepts.

So why is it so important to genderism to say not just "she needs to be treated as if she were a woman" but "she actually IS a woman, the defintion of a woman includes her", and thereby redefine womanhood from a simple fact about the body to a type of mind or personality not just for trans women but for ALL women?

It is purely and simply to make it impossible to justify exactly the types of single sex rights and exemptions you support. If you can convince the world that the ineffable "womannyness" shared between trans women and cis women is more significant than the difference between their bodies, it becomes much harder to justify treating them differently.

The point of reframing the group of males who (believe they) identify as women from "men who we sometimes treat as if they are women socially" to "a subset of women who have male bodies" is to create a situation where treating trans women and cis women differently for any reason beyond the purely medical is by definition transphobic and bigotted, because to do so is to place the trans woman as a lesser type of woman.

It allows them to frame differentiating between trans women and "cis women" as equivalent to racism or homophobia, which logically speaking is a nasty little sleight of hand because it presupposes sameness without explicitly arguing for and proving it, and thereby frames any objection as introducing a difference between things that are fundamentally the same rather than challenging that supposition of sameness in the first place.

(As an aside, I've said "between trans women and cis women" because that is how is is always presented, but in practice by "cis women" they actually mean female people. Yes, I know that is not what they say, and probably not even what they consciously think they believe,yet it is evidenced by their actions. Because for all the rhetoric about "not all female people are women", anyone actually attempting to create female-only analysis, spaces, supports or provisions for female people who do not identify as "cis women" is immediately condemned as "transphobic" and faced with social, legal and sometimes even physical attack. Genderists talk a good game about personal identity and widening definitions but in practice need most of us to continue to play our part as "women" so trans women can identify into it.)

This isn't paranoia. It's on Stonewall's website. There is a hashtag #RapistHill under which people openly acknowledge their belief that yes, because trans women are a subset of women and not a subset of men then a trans woman does belong in a women's prison even if she is a rapist and they are ok with that and will defend her right to be there because she is as much a woman as a cis woman and they think they are the good guys fighting bigotry in doing this.

(Aside 2: I'm not entirely sure what the justification is for housing a trans woman with female prisoners without also separating the female estate into women and those who do not identify as cis women. I mean, the ideology may justify housing "women" together but what about the other females? That never gets considered, exactly because the people who focus on what TW need never acknowledge that redefining woman to avoid anything specific to females creates a massive gap between "women's" provisions and what female people may need.)

foxgoosefinch · 08/11/2021 13:34

I’ve been on this thread a long time now so I’m due a break, “my love”. I don’t owe you my emotional labour, do I?

foxgoosefinch · 08/11/2021 13:35

(That was to helloise not blibbyblobby by the way!)

Helloise · 08/11/2021 13:41

@foxgoosefinch

I’ve been on this thread a long time now so I’m due a break, “my love”. I don’t owe you my emotional labour, do I?
You definitely need a break - you seem a bit over-tired and don't seem to be thinking clearly.

Seriously though, you don't get to interrogate me with a set of nasty, loaded, accusatory questions (through which your agenda is immediately obvious, but which I chose to answer because I want to be understood) and then get huffy because I'm not fucking delighted with your attitude. If "my love" is so upsetting to you then you must have a hard time getting through life, generally speaking.

Helloise · 08/11/2021 13:45

@foxgoosefinch

And for the last time:

A spectrum is continuous variation. It is not the opposite of a binary.

Something may not be a simple binary but that does not mean it is therefore a spectrum.

There are around 24 positions in this table but that makes them 24 different discrete possible positions. It does not make them a spectrum. PLEASE look up spectrum in a dictionary.

Do you have a source for that table? I know more than most people about DSD and intersex conditions and I've never seen them abitrarily divided up that way. Anyone can make a table in a word doc and write some shit in it. The @ in the bottom corner seems to be a suspended "gender critical" twitter account.
JandLandG · 08/11/2021 13:53

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00114tt

1'22' omwards is bout this topic - a good listem

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2021 13:54

You definitely need a break - you seem a bit over-tired and don't seem to be thinking clearly.

Her points seem perfectly clear to me.

Helloise · 08/11/2021 13:57

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You definitely need a break - you seem a bit over-tired and don't seem to be thinking clearly.

Her points seem perfectly clear to me.

Maybe you need a nap, too.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2021 14:01

Yeah, no. But nice to see you have so many excellent arguments.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 08/11/2021 14:07

@foxgoosefinch

There have only been around 500 cases of the true ovotesticular disorder you mention ever recorded, *@Helloise*, and the majority had no functioning penis. Can you tell us exactly how this should be taken as undermining the whole of humanity’s historical chromosomal makeup? Should we be marking all loos as unisex as a result?
I think that was supposed to trigger our 'be kind' gene. But as many of us have long friendships with and family members who are transpeople, and lots of biology education, we know better than that.

I can be compassionate towards anyone with DSD or body dismorphia or dysphoria, but that doesn't change the reality of science.