To despise being called ‘cis’?

[Ostryga]

I’m not ‘cis’. I’m not ‘cisgendered’. I’m literally a woman. I’ve just read a guardian article that calls women seeking IVF cisgendered.

Why????

Hate the term cis. I am a woman, end of. As Professor Winston said a few weeks ago, sex is binary and biologically is in every cell in your body.

I am confused though about the connection between the term cis and misogyny/patriarchy. Can someone explain this?

*Frenchfancy

Yanbu. I don't know why everyone bends backwards not to not offend and then go on to offend a huge percentage of women*

Exactly.

Why don't women matter?

Of course, it could be to do with assumptions made about us and reinforced through gender ideology...

@Wannakisstheteacher

I absolutely reject the term ‘cis’. I am a woman. It’s disgusting how a small group of men have actually managed to marginalise half the population. Only women have periods, only women give birth, only women can breastfeed. And only women belong in a women’s prision.

So what’s the answer for trans women who have had surgery? What should they be referred to as? Which toilets/changing rooms should they use? There are no easy answers.

I am confused though about the connection between the term cis and misogyny/patriarchy. Can someone explain this?

It is the utter disdain and contempt shown to women when they object to being labelled based on stereotypes women don't want. Women are not shown respect or treated as equal, but patronised and told to be kind.
It is then the rape threats that follow that shows the misogyny behind it.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

I’m not assuming anything. But you also don’t speak for all people. You don’t ‘believe’ female can refer to anyone other than someone with a very specific set of chromosomes, all activated in a particular way to produce a very specific body and mind, fine. That is your right.

My right is to ‘believe’ that the notion of female can be prescribed to characteristics, traits and so on. I’m not doubting some (most? All?) of this is societally constructed, but it doesn’t make it less true to me.

I’m not shitting on you, I just don’t agree with you. And you can get as pissy as you like about that AFAIC. I don’t agree with how JKR & KS etc have been treated, it’s vile and dangerous.

@Blueskip
I’ve given my thoughts on this already, but to be clear, I’m not in favour of allowing anyone into women’s spaces unchecked. But I also acknowledge that the path to gender identity certification is very tricky and long, and the path to dismantling gender stereotypes even longer, so something needs to be done to support those trans people living it now.

Does that mean gender self-certification as a way to access prisons and refuges? No. But I also don’t subscribe to the idea that there are thousands of predatory men pretending to be trans just to get into those spaces. But even one is too many, so how do we come up with a way to navigate this that keeps everyone safe?

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

I’m sure my beliefs and understanding will evolve many times, and I hope that the discourse around these issues will become less divisive as they do. But I don’t see ‘cis’ as problematic; to me it is a shorthand for ‘body aligns with identity’.

Of course anyone who doesn’t believe in the idea of identity will have a problem with it, but I don’t subscribe to Hobbes’ mechanistic world view and never have - so i have to say I doubt I’ll ever have an issue with cis as a descriptor. I still wouldn’t use it for myself but I acknowledge that being female in body and identity is probably a lot easier than having a mismatch. Not as easy as being male, but that’s a whole other conversation.

@MyOtherProfile

Don't you think it would be better to challenge regressive gender stereotypes rather than collude in the fiction that if you don't conform to gender stereotypes you should magically change sex? *@Blueskip* I feel like I want to get this printed on t shirts!

I totally agree with this. However, playing Devil’s advocate, my dds would argue that it’s not about gender stereotypes, it’s about a genuine belief that some people are born in the wrong body.

So what’s the answer for trans women who have had surgery? What should they be referred to as? Which toilets/changing rooms should they use? There are no easy answers

Transwomen are transwomen, even the less than 5% who have had genital surgery.
As for toilets and changing rooms, as many have pointed out, if only stonewall had used their millions to campaign for mixed sex spaces aside of single sex spaces, instead of using it to try and remove sex as protected characteristic...

@sanluca

I am confused though about the connection between the term cis and misogyny/patriarchy. Can someone explain this?

It is the utter disdain and contempt shown to women when they object to being labelled based on stereotypes women don't want. Women are not shown respect or treated as equal, but patronised and told to be kind.
It is then the rape threats that follow that shows the misogyny behind it.

@sanluca thank you, ‘not shown respect’ by whom? Men, women, trans men , trans women?

*@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

I’m not assuming anything. But you also don’t speak for all people. You don’t ‘believe’ female can refer to anyone other than someone with a very specific set of chromosomes, all activated in a particular way to produce a very specific body and mind, fine. That is your right.*

You're not listening. By calling me cis you are assuming I have a gender identity. I don't. So don't call me cis. I am very happy for you to have a different believe system than mine and know perfectly well that others agree with you. However, most people agree with me so we should not be changing sex-based rights. You can't talk about others shitting on vulnerable people effectively because they won't do or say what those vulnerable people want whilst defending the right for people to force the identity of cis on women - who are clearly vulnerable in our patriarchal society. Double standards are not OK.

So what’s the answer for trans women who have had surgery? What should they be referred to as? Which toilets/changing rooms should they use? There are no easy answers.

Five years ago my answer would have been different. These days? I don't care. It's not my problem to solve.

Let transwomen and men sort it. Them all being male should make their terms of reference more similar.

That's the natural consequence of TRA actions, Stonewall's lobbying and lying about the law.

I no longer care to continue with the submissive, feminine behaviour that allowed this situation to get to where it is. My line in the sand has been drawn and I say "No!"

Well... there’s one who has declared that they are a C** woman. It makes little sense.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I am cis, it's not a slur and those who say it is are almost all transphobes.

But I don’t see ‘cis’ as problematic; to me it is a shorthand for ‘body aligns with identity’.

Why can't you see that this is assuming that people have a relevant identity? What is so hard to understand about the inability to believe that your body aligns with identity if you don't have a gender identity? What is it that you're not getting?

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I am cis, it's not a slur and those who say it is are almost all transphobes.

Another person arrogantly assuming that everyone has a gender identity. Another femphobe.

@thatonehasalittlecar

Do me one favour as you go forward? Look at the harm done to women as this ideology goes on.

Seriously think about women in sport.

Seriously consider what happens to some.female academics

Look again a the issues with transwomen in female prisons

Remember that all of these things, and more, are connected by how society describes and thinks of men and women.

Obscuring that leads to harm, to both men and women, but to women most often.

To be less divisive women would have to both feel and actually be safer in all parts of life.

*Are you being serious?

Do you honestly not see any difference between men & women except physical? You don’t acknowledge any notion of ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’ traits?

They might be socially constructed, or they might have innate biological bases, perhaps linked to our differing roles in reproduction, but to pretend they don’t exist is disingenuous*

Ah, I see the problem. You believe that the old-fashioned stereotypes have some merit or accuracy. Feminists don't. Feminists are the progressive ones then and TRA need to update their thinking. Is that what you're saying? I refuse to be called feminine. It's a horrible and oppressive term. If you believe it is socially constructed btw, why not try and deconstruct it rather than reinforcing it?

@Suspiciousmind20

So, I went to some training by a charity that support the LBQT+ community. It really opened my eyes to how hard it is to have people make massive assumptions about you without checking (e.g. calling you ‘he’ when you identify as a woman, assuming you are heterosexual when you are not). It’s very alienating and ‘othering’.

I work with the public and want to be as inclusive as possible and make everyone feel comfortable. I want to be really mindful of this.

As someone who has been identified as a woman all my life and am obviously a woman, and as a heterosexual, I’ve never experienced anyone making wrong assumptions about me in that respect. I don’t want to be blind to the fact that this means that life has been easier for me in that respect.

thatonehasalittlecar
Thank you. That explanation of making things more equal - ‘trans-woman and ‘cis-woman’ helps me to understand. I still don’t like the idea of being called a cis-woman though. It is a gut reaction. That then makes me wonder if I’m holding on to the power (a bit like men do when challenged on misogyny or racists do when challenged eg All lives matter). This has given me lots of food for thought.

I think it’s really helpful to challenge ourselves in this way and think about these issues. It’s something I will continue to ponder on.

What makes you ''obviously'' a woman, though?

Is it how you dress, your mannerisms?

Or are you referring to the fact that you're female?

Because that is the kicker. I remember being back on the school playground and having the pretty popular girls suggest I should be on the boys team for everything, because I wasn't feminine enough for them.

Gender ideology is taking us back to those days. And its reprehensible. I'm no less a woman than women who are more feminine.

So what’s the answer for trans women who have had surgery? What should they be referred to as? Which toilets/changing rooms should they use? There are no easy answers

Men who have cosmetic surgery are still men. Men involved in landmine accidents or had cancer resulting in loss of their penis are still men. Very few transwomen have genital surgery anyway. To be counted as a transwoman a man does not need to make any changes - they can still have a beard, no surgery or hormones, still wear typically mascline clothing. There is nothing that distinguishes transwomen from other men except their own self-declared 'feelings'. And they cannot 'feel like a woman' as they have no idea what that feels like and never can.

So heartened to see the responses on this thread. Even months ago it wouldn’t have been this resounding against being called ‘vis’. Really hoping the tide is turning on all this nonsense.

@Lovelyricepudding

So what’s the answer for trans women who have had surgery? What should they be referred to as? Which toilets/changing rooms should they use? There are no easy answers

Men who have cosmetic surgery are still men. Men involved in landmine accidents or had cancer resulting in loss of their penis are still men. Very few transwomen have genital surgery anyway. To be counted as a transwoman a man does not need to make any changes - they can still have a beard, no surgery or hormones, still wear typically mascline clothing. There is nothing that distinguishes transwomen from other men except their own self-declared 'feelings'. And they cannot 'feel like a woman' as they have no idea what that feels like and never can.

I’m as GC as they come but your comments are really transphobic.

These people are trans women, they aren’t men.

[quote thatonehasalittlecar]@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

Are you being serious?

Do you honestly not see any difference between men & women except physical? You don’t acknowledge any notion of ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’ traits?

They might be socially constructed, or they might have innate biological bases, perhaps linked to our differing roles in reproduction, but to pretend they don’t exist is disingenuous.[/quote]
Yes - those are the gender stereotypes you were referring to as bad in your previous post.

You can’t at one moment say you agree we should be dismantling gender stereotypes, then at another moment say there are mysterious masculine and feminine traits that “may” be socially constructed or may be innate and biologically based - and not notice the cognitive dissonance, surely?

They are part and parcel of the same thing.

Don’t like being disadvantaged by having kids in a masculine workplace? You’re colluding with the whole system by pretending that there are “socially” “feminine” traits of being a woman.

Marxist feminists used to have a phrase for this - “complicit in your own oppression”.

We all understand that many women internalise the system that oppresses them, so that they come to love it and perpetuate it as much as they hate it. That’s how it works - that’s how things are. We’re all caught up in it. But honestly, save us from deliberately arguing for the things that oppress you being “kind” for a while. Trans women and men are not ever told to “be kind”. Only women. Because those “feminine traits” say women should be kind and self sacrificing and accept they come second to men. You simply reproduce sexism in your own words with this kind of muddled thinking. Why not be “kind” to yourself, and accept that you have been thoroughly socially indoctrinated to believe that women are innately subordinate, and that that’s difficult to rid yourself of?

You can have rights and fight for them without men (of any gender identity) giving you permission.

@Stravaig

Bucketfuls of appreciation to *@Blibbyblobby* *@foxgoosefinch* for your brilliantly clear and thoughtful posts which express so much of what I think but have been wary of untangling into words. Thank you so much.

Completely agree. *@foxgoosefinch and @Blibbyblobby* have so clearly articulated some very important points, with a considered and respectful tone, which fully reflect my thoughts and feelings on this critical issue. I thank you both for managing to express in words the important arguments in defence of women that so often get lost and shouted down.

Meh, really can’t get worked up by small changes to language when male violence is so prevalent and kills so many women.

I think the answer to that was "it's too hard".

@Electricbug321

Meh, really can’t get worked up by small changes to language when male violence is so prevalent and kills so many women.

This is surely why you should be worked up? What happens when violence against women can no longer be identified or addressed as we are not allowed to say what a woman is.