To despise being called ‘cis’?

[Ostryga]

I’m not ‘cis’. I’m not ‘cisgendered’. I’m literally a woman. I’ve just read a guardian article that calls women seeking IVF cisgendered.

Why????

It really opened my eyes to how hard it is to have people make massive assumptions about you without checking (e.g. calling you ‘he’ when you identify as a woman,

As a woman I have had people make massive assumptions about me all the time including that I am happy for my sex to be reduce to a set of regressive stereotypes that men can 'identify' into. That I should kowtow to demands to give up the language used to refer to my sex by men who want me to refer to them in their absence as 'she', and who assume women exist to validate their identity.

I’m as GC as they come but your comments are really transphobic.

These people are trans women, they aren’t men.

Would you consider the comments transphobic if the PP had used ‘male’ instead of ‘men’? This is why we need words to describe biological sex that have no gender connotations.

The problem with cis is that it 'others' women and makes us a subset of our own sex. That, is why it's a problem. History shows us that in order to dehumanise a group of people, you first start by changing the language used to describe them. From there, you invalidate and dehumanise them. All government and society-enacted prejudice, discrimination and racism starts by changing the language around the victimised group. It from there makes the dehumanising easier.

That, is why using 'cis' or 'cisgender' is to make women a subset of our own sex is the gateway to dehumanising us. It is far more insidious and nefarious than people believe.

@Suspiciousmind20

Witchcraftandhokum

Trans - from the Latin for opposite of.

Cis - from the Latin for same as.

That’s interesting to know.

Not quite. It’s same side as and opposite side from. See also stereochemistry.

@Walkaround

Maybe there are three categories - trans women, cis women, and women who identify as being of the female sex but who think gender is irrelevant to them and bordering on an offensive stereotype.

No.

There is only one category of woman and it encompasses all personality types.

Adult human females.

@jellyfrizz

I’m as GC as they come but your comments are really transphobic.

These people are trans women, they aren’t men.

Would you consider the comments transphobic if the PP had used ‘male’ instead of ‘men’? This is why we need words to describe biological sex that have no gender connotations.

sorry, really not getting your point here? I am responding to the fact that that poster has said that men will never be anything other than men and that trans women are still men (to paraphrase)

@TaliaB1 yes I think that is what what frustrating me without me being able to put it into words. It’s othering. And unnecessary.

@entropynow

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I am cis, it's not a slur and those who say it is are almost all transphobes.

@entropynow It IS a slur, and those who say otherwise are misogynists and femphobes.

@bendmeoverbackwards

Hate the term cis. I am a woman, end of. As Professor Winston said a few weeks ago, sex is binary and biologically is in every cell in your body.

I am confused though about the connection between the term cis and misogyny/patriarchy. Can someone explain this?

Men telling women what and who they are, and who qualifies as a woman, is one of the very oldest tools of patriarchy in recorded history. The ancient philosophers spent a lot of time pondering on what women are and what places they should have and what they can call themselves and how they are and what they should be doing. The root myths of nearly all global religions are absolutely full of it. It’s not only part of patriarchy but right in there at the very origins of patriarchy.

I guess where I lose the thread of what you are saying is this bit @thatonehasalittlecar

My right is to ‘believe’ that the notion of female can be prescribed to characteristics, traits and so on. I’m not doubting some (most? All?) of this is societally constructed, but it doesn’t make it less true to me.

If you believe that, which is your right to (and I agree there are sex stereotypes associated with men and women), but then if I and many other women don’t conform to these socially constructed characteristics does that make us less of a woman? Is this why people identify as non binary?

Personally I think defining man and woman on this basis is dangerous for children who are non gender conforming, who are then pushed down a route of surgery rather than just being a masculine woman for example.

@ShirleyPhallus sorry, really not getting your point here? I am responding to the fact that that poster has said that men will never be anything other than men and that trans women are still men (to paraphrase)

But that’s factually true. Why are you objecting to this? Lopping off your bits and taking an oestrogen supplement doesn’t change someone magically into a woman. It makes them a man who has had surgery and takes oestrogen pills. Where is the magical change that does something else?

Tranwomen are men and will always remain men. The only way it can be otherwise is through the corruption of language so words no longer mean what they used to but in no one can change sex and reality always remains however much you try to change words to hide the fact. When a man manspreading on his chair in his suit and beard announcing he is a woman, nothing changes.

@Electricbug321

Meh, really can’t get worked up by small changes to language when male violence is so prevalent and kills so many women.

@Electricbug321 All violence against a group ie Jewish people, women, African Americans all start out by changing the language used to describe that group. Language is the gateway to condoning and encouraging violence and 'othering' people. When you change the language, you change the status of that group. That is why the first first step, changing the language, is so very very vital to combat in order to prevent violence and oppression.

To pick up on an earlier point, it’s not that we think predatory men will have to identify as a TW to access womens spaces, its that they won’t have to do that

Stonewalls mantra is acceptance without exception, if a man says he’s a trans woman then he is. Furthermore, presenting as female isn’t a requirement of using the term TW. All we are doing is opening up women only spaces to any man who wants to come in, all they have to do is say that are trans.

@canyoutoleratethis ah thank you for your kind message! I’m glad my tone comes across as considered, because half the time I feel like I must have steam coming out of my ears this all disturbs me so much

I think that is a great explanation @TaliaB1 I would also add, to posters who are saying well you can believe this definition and I can believe this.

But that’s not how language works is it, we need to have definitions everyone agrees on otherwise we are unable to communicate effectively. Can already see this when talking about women’s health.

So does the trans movement object to the term 'trans'? Ideally do they want trans women to be called 'women' and transmen to be called 'men'?

[quote foxgoosefinch]**@ShirleyPhallus* sorry, really not getting your point here? I am responding to the fact that that poster has said that men will never be anything other than men and that trans women are still men (to paraphrase)*

But that’s factually true. Why are you objecting to this? Lopping off your bits and taking an oestrogen supplement doesn’t change someone magically into a woman. It makes them a man who has had surgery and takes oestrogen pills. Where is the magical change that does something else?[/quote]
Those people are called trans women though, they’re not still men.

Meh, really can’t get worked up by small changes to language when male violence is so prevalent and kills so many women.

But this is an example of the problem! Who are the perpetrators? Who are the victims? Are the perpetrators of violence men and women who identify as men? Are the victims women and men who identify as women? Does that mean that trans identified females are more likely to be perpetrators of violence, and that female identifying males are more likely to become victims. More likely than who? How? Why?

How can be POSSIBLY even begin to address issues such as these without clear language that means the same thing to everyone?

Cis is offensive, upsetting and unecessary. It is also a way of muddying waters and making statements such as 'men committing violence against women' impossibly to verify, analyse and understand.

I just don’t see the problem tbh. Trans people aren’t trying to stop women calling themselves women. Male violence is directed against all women, including those who identify as such even if they were not born female.

I don’t have a gender identity, I experience being a women through my body and societal stereotypes (which should be abolished.) But just because I don’t have one it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I don’t object to trans people wanting language to describe their identity, being called cis takes nothing away from me, and arguing about this takes energy from the funding cuts to refuges and the fight against male violence.

@bendmeoverbackwards

So does the trans movement object to the term 'trans'? Ideally do they want trans women to be called 'women' and transmen to be called 'men'?

Some TRAs are already doing this. Some transpeople are now claiming that they are cis as well 🙄

@scoutingformygirls

Male violence against women is driven by misogyny and toxic masculinity. I don’t have a problem with violence against trans women being included in stats on male violence.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Ok, that does clarify things for me - I’m sorry for assuming you have a gender identity. Now I understand what that means to you, I completely see why the idea of being described as cis alienates you.

I would add that I don’t agree that most people don’t have a gender identity; I think almost everyone I have ever met has one. Is gender the only facet to their identity? No, definitely not. But I have never met anyone who doesn’t have some ‘stereotypical’ gender behaviour, and I move within circles of very highly educated and intelligent women breaking glass ceilings all over the place. One of the most surprising aspects of many of my friendship groups is how women have embraced what I would consider outdated gender roles as they’ve got older. Whether this is from necessity brought on by inequalities, (for example those who have taken a back seat to their husband’s more lucrative careers) or desire (eg those who have actively sought to be there with their young kids), I don’t know. I would be interested to hear about any information that shows me to be wrong about most people having a gender identity (whether or not they acknowledge/ know it).

I would also suggest that it is not just about how we self-identify (meaning with or without gender identity); also relevant is how society ascribes identity to us. All of these are valuable when discussing how to use language. I fully support anyone’s right to eschew ‘cis’ but also defend the right for others to use it if it’s helpful for their own discourse, or as a descriptor for others who exist within the same world view where gender identity exists (socially constructed or not).

As for your comments about me believing old-fashioned stereotypes have merits - you are misunderstanding me entirely. I don’t subscribe to any notions that ‘feminine’ traits are lesser, which is what you’re suggesting.

Don’t be that feminist, trying to gatekeep how all women should think. I am a feminist, and you, random person on the internet, don’t get to tell me I’m not, anymore than I get to call you cis.

What are TRAs? Sorry I'm not familiar with all the terminology.

@ShirleyPhallus er, they are still men?