To despise being called ‘cis’?

[Ostryga]

I’m not ‘cis’. I’m not ‘cisgendered’. I’m literally a woman. I’ve just read a guardian article that calls women seeking IVF cisgendered.

Why????

It's just so regressive and illogical. I just don't understand why people tie themselves in knots with language and all the pretending you can change sex stuff when instead they should be campaigning against gender stereotyping rather than seeking to enforce it. You can seek to normalise e.g. men wearing dresses and skirts without pretending that they magically turn into a woman when they do so (and then magically turn back into a man when it suits them e.g. Pip Bunce).

You can seek to normalise e.g. men wearing dresses and skirts without pretending that they magically turn into a woman when they do so

Exactly

This is why the Guardian is a bit of a joke nowadays with its student journalists posing as mature column writers. This ‘newspaper (using the term lightly here) is a true example of an echo chamber. The Guardian’s days are numbered. Nevertheless you are not being unreasonable.

I absolutely reject the term ‘cis’. I am a woman. It’s disgusting how a small group of men have actually managed to marginalise half the population. Only women have periods, only women give birth, only women can breastfeed. And only women belong in a women’s prision.

And what about all the men winning "woman of the year" type awards? These are meant to champion and encourage women who, it is recognised, face greater barriers in areas like sport and business than men.

Then you get Laurel Hubbard winning NZ Sportwoman of the year award even though she was eliminated in the Olympics (after preventing an indigenous woman competing) while the three gold medal winning female rower doesn't even get a mention.

Or "Pip" Bunce winning businesswoman of the year award or whatever it was even though some days he turns up to work as Philip, a man, and sometimes he turns up at work as "Pip", having magically turned into a woman overnight.

The gender identity movement is misogynistic, offensive, illogical, embeds regressive stereotypes and is dangerously militant against anyone who points out the truth. It is certainly not kind.

I hate it. Cis means that you identify with the gender that matches your sex. I don't. Ever since I was a small girl I've experienced gender as a barrier and a limitation. Girls don't behave like that. You have to have the pink one, you're a girl and pink is for girls. All the messages our culture gives us that men are the default and women are something other, decorative and feminine and frivolous. As an adult it's easy enough to see it for what it is and reject it. As a girl? I thought that I was the problem. That I failed at being a girl.

I don't have a gender identity. I'm a human being with my own unique mix of personality traits, interests and talents, some considered masculine and some feminine. I don't identify with a gender that matches my sex, or one that doesn't.

I hear cis and what it tells me is that the person saying it thinks that I sit within the little box marked 'femininity' - and that I like it. That I'm some sort of NPC with a ladybrain while they (and, oddly enough, it often is a 'they') get to be a full human being.

I say no thank you.

[quote Blueskip]**@thatonehasalittlecar* you say There is a difference between saying ‘biological males cannot gestate’ and ‘males can’t gestate’ because for me, a biological female can be male, if male is defined not in terms of biology / sex but in terms of gender / social stereotypes.*

So you acknowledge that gender identity is based on gender/social stereotypes. Don't you think it would be better to challenge regressive gender stereotypes rather than collude in the fiction that if you don't conform to gender stereotypes you should magically change sex?

Also your "belief" that a biological female can be male is just that. A belief. It is not fact. A biological female can only be male if you change the meaning of the word male to include female. That makes no sense. The same as trying to change the word woman to mean women and men who want to be women.[/quote]
Yes, of course it would be better to dismantle gender stereotypes and as I make my way through the world as both someone who does a very male dominated job and is raising kids, I try to do just that.

That doesn’t mean I can’t also do things to make space and be kind to those struggling now. It’s not an either / or.

As for this idea that a biological male cannot be female, I agree. A biological male cannot become biologically female. But that is not the same as saying they cannot be female in a social / gender-based / non-chromosomal sense.

As for those conflating the use of cis in a very specific way in this argument with predators raping women in prisons - do fuck off. We can be more nuanced in our navigation of this issue. Do I think we should blithely open all women’s spaces to men? Of course not. But can we facilitate the needs of a small group of society who themselves are persecuted and abused in horrific ways? Yes I think we can - and should.

I am extremely uncomfortable with (for example) self-certification being open to abuse but we need to work on ways to prevent this whilst still acknowledging that there are people who need support with their identity as it relates to their position in the world.

@Katypyee

You can still be CIS and a woman. Using CIS is no big deal to who you are.

Cis-gender literally relates to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender corresponds with their birth sex. So you are female at birth and your personal identity is female. So for you, both align. The very definition of cis.

I honestly do not understand why so many MN'ers get their knickers in a twist over this.

Because you lack comprehension of basics of science.

If transwomen are women and cis women are women and both are a subset of women due to 'how they identify' then can I identify as a trans woman?

Well no because... biology. Ah that pesky science.

That doesn’t mean I can’t also do things to make space and be kind to those struggling now

I don't disagree, but I do stop short of playing along with the idea that men can become women and vice versa.

I Am compassionate enough to realise that Trans people, male or female, trying to live their lives might not want to be reffered to as a "Trans man/woman"

And so modest too!

But that is not the same as saying they cannot be female in a social / gender-based / non-chromosomal sense.

What does it mean to be 'female in a social / gender-based / non-chromosomal sense.'?

What does that look like?

@TheKeatingFive

Become women in what sense?

Chromosomally? No.
Biologically? No.
Socially? Yes.
Gender? Yes.

So much of this anger comes down to the (rightful) anguish women have at their position in society; the millennia of misogyny and persecution. But the answer is not to shit on other people, it is to fight for justice for all.

But I guess if you are always going to consider trans women as ‘blokes in dresses’ then you will never be on the same page as me.

*You can still be CIS and a woman. Using CIS is no big deal to who you are.

Cis-gender literally relates to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender corresponds with their birth sex. So you are female at birth and your personal identity is female. So for you, both align. The very definition of cis.

I honestly do not understand why so many MN'ers get their knickers in a twist over this.*

This patronising response makes me think you don't really care about understanding. It is really simple - you can't be cis unless you have a 'sense of your own gender' as an identity issue. For the vast majority of people, gender is a immutable biological fact. It is not a matter of identity. So when you say cis you assume things about our identity. Things that are wrong. Viola! Now just read that a couple of times and actually listen to it. Then you will understand and can stop using patronising dismissive misogynistic insults like 'knickers in a twist'.

So much of this anger comes down to the (rightful) anguish women have at their position in society; the millennia of misogyny and persecution. But the answer is not to shit on other people, it is to fight for justice for all.

Trans ideology is shitting on women. Women do want to fight for justice for all. So you're saying that you are GC?

Chromosomally? No.
Biologically? No.
Socially? Yes.
Gender? Yes.

Again, why are you assuming that anyone other than a small minority of people believe that the concept of woman means anything other than chromosomally and biologically? It doesn't. If it did, most women would not be women. So you'd be shitting on me with that sort of statement, yes?

@thatonehasalittlecar Why can't you make space for and be kind to women who are struggling? Like the vulnerable women who are at the sharp end of this, having to pretend that their male rapists are women in court and refer to them as "she" or be called a bigot? Or those living in women's refuges and prisons who are being forced to "make space" for male sex offenders who claim they are now women? I will not allow my DD to grow up in a society where male sex offenders are freely allowed to walk into girls' toilets and changing rooms without being challenged.

I can be kind to transpeople yes. But I won't deny reality and say that men can magically turn into women whenever they want to. It's ludicrous. And no, I will not make space for sex offenders in women's spaces. I'm not saying all transwomen are sex offenders but if you allow transwomen into women's spaces you're also allowing predatory men into women's spaces.

We owe it to the younger generation to focus on dismantling gender stereotypes not insisting that if you like pink and ironing and wearing dresses you must actually be a woman and then changing the word woman to mean women and any man who wants to call himself a woman.

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

Are you being serious?

Do you honestly not see any difference between men & women except physical? You don’t acknowledge any notion of ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’ traits?

They might be socially constructed, or they might have innate biological bases, perhaps linked to our differing roles in reproduction, but to pretend they don’t exist is disingenuous.

I am extremely uncomfortable with (for example) self-certification being open to abuse but we need to work on ways to prevent this whilst still acknowledging that there are people who need support with their identity as it relates to their position in the world.

Given this and everything else you have posted @thatonehasalittlecar I would guess that you are where I was about 5 years ago.

I know both transwomen and transwomen and I don't want to think if them negatively. They are longstanding friends.

But about 5 years ago something changed for me. It was the aggressive insistence that women had to step aside, to willingly give up those legal protections that made simply living my day to day life more safe. Like participation in female sports the presumption that any man could use any single sex space meant that some women would be hurt and excluded from all areas of life.

I had to think about that. Even if I didn't consider men who deliberately set out to hurt how many women excluded from a club, a swimming pool, elite sport, an award for literature, a job was too many? How many women hurt, injured in a sport was too many?

At that point the reality of 'cis' became obvious, it obfuscates what is really happening, just as the terms transwomen does - Look at many if the opinion gathering polls and you will see that lots of people don't know, and assume a transwoman is a female wanting to be make and vice versa. That cannot stand. Nor can any other assault in language that seeks to hide the damage being done to the every day dignity and safety if women.

Keep posting, keep thinking. What is the end result of what you believe? Seriously consider that, you may well end up being as horrified as I was.

[quote thatonehasalittlecar]@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

Are you being serious?

Do you honestly not see any difference between men & women except physical? You don’t acknowledge any notion of ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’ traits?

They might be socially constructed, or they might have innate biological bases, perhaps linked to our differing roles in reproduction, but to pretend they don’t exist is disingenuous.[/quote]
My answer would be I have thought about it and the real life reality is scary.

Being nice and accomodating gets real women really hurt in real life situations.

But can we facilitate the needs of a small group of society who themselves are persecuted and abused in horrific ways? Yes I think we can - and should

Not by mutilating the language I use to describe myself in the context of my sex class though. Happy to refer to someone by their preferred pronouns even if these do not match their biological sex, but I'm fucked if I'm going to refer to myself as the c-word.

Also, women are abused and persecuted in horrific ways and gender ideology contributes to this. We need to challenge it.

Again, why are you assuming that anyone other than a small minority of people believe that the concept of woman means anything other than chromosomally and biologically? It doesn't.

Totally agree with this

But can we facilitate the needs of a small group of society who themselves are persecuted and abused in horrific ways? Yes I think we can - and should

Of course. But not by redefining what 'woman' means.

Also, women are abused and persecuted in horrific ways and gender ideology contributes to this. We need to challenge it.

Exactly. Having defined "masculine" and "feminine" traits hurts women. Women are supposed to be kind, caring, do the housework, be gentle, look after children, sacrifice their careers, be paid less, listen to men's opinions, be weaker, do less well paid jobs, not complain, make space, be kind. Why would you want to be part of an ideology that reinforces this? I particularly don't understand how anyone who has daughters would champion this ideology.

@Frenchfancy

Yanbu. I don't know why everyone bends backwards not to not offend and then go on to offend a huge percentage of women.

This sums it up perfectly.

I am a woman, so I would like to be referred to as a woman.