To despise being called ‘cis’?

[Ostryga]

I’m not ‘cis’. I’m not ‘cisgendered’. I’m literally a woman. I’ve just read a guardian article that calls women seeking IVF cisgendered.

Why????

takealettermsjones: If an author wants to refer only to "women who have always been biologically female", doesn't it make sense to have a short way of saying that?

Yes, which is why if it's useful for clarity I won't bridle if you call me a natal woman, but depending on which definition of cis we're using today it's either offensive or inaccurate. Why offensive? Well if we're using the lazy "it just means non-trans" definition, then you're defining me by what I lack, not by what I am. That's offensive, in a similar way to calling black people "non-white", women "non-men" etc. If we're using the "identifies with the gender associated with their sex" one, it's inaccurate, because I don't identify with the definition of woman that encompasses both transwomen and natal women while excluding natal men, as it seems to rely on a whole load of stereotypes that I've spent most of my life rejecting.

I'm a woman because I'm a human female that's reached adulthood. That's not my identity, it's my reality.

@Witchcraftandhokum

Thefsrtingsofaofdenmarkstreet Why do people seem to think others are beholden to answer their questions. I've said repeatedly I wasn't looking for an argument.

Why are you on this thread then, if you are not willing to back up what you are saying?

I am always looking for alternate views on this, I think sometimes it can get a bit 'echo chambery' here. But part of the reason for that is that as soon as someone comes on with an alternate view and is then asked to clarify or back up what they are saying, they just run off saying they 'don't want to engage'! It's really frustrating to be honest.

@Suspiciousmind20 -no worries, there are a lot of different and complex strands to it to consider, I read up over a few months before finding my position on it.

I have found Milli Hill and Helen Joyce both good on this subject.

Have a good evening 👍

@TheKeatingFive

So if someone feels uncomfortable labelling their breasts as breasts (presumably because of the feminine associations?) and prefers to be less specific by referring to their chest, crack on. It’s not wrong to say ‘chest feeding’

If this person is so uncomfortable with the existence of their breasts as manifestation of their female anatomy, one really wonders why they would become pregnant in the first place.

One might indeed wonder that. I’m sure there are many complex reasons leading them to do that. Desperation for a family, the innate biological imperative to pass on our genes? Economic, moral and/or social limitations that make it impossible to use alternative means to procreate using surrogacy / IVF etc?

But instead of sneering at their attempt to navigate an incredibly complex event, why not attempt to understand them? I guess compassion isn’t one of the ‘feminine’ traits you possess.

Thefartingsofaofdenmatkstreet As I've said I was here discussing the etymology of the term 'cis' I was answering a post by somebody else when TheKeatingFive started demanding answers. Anyway I shall take my leave as this thread has gone the predictable way of all 'trans' threads on MN. It's tedious.

YANBU

Strolling into a group of some 4 billion women worldwide and unilaterally decreeing that we are all to be called something else, without consultation, without consensus, without consent, is an act so quintessentially, arrogantly, abusively male that it bellows 'I'm a man' irrespective of surgery or hormones.

I don't see male terminology being unilaterally redefined to suit trans men.

The UK media is generally underwhelming, so their lack of clear analysis does not surprise me.

I've got no issue with it. I am, according the definition of it, a cis woman.

I will dutifully await my 75 replies immediately telling me I'm wrong for having an opinion on this that differs from the mumsnet status quo, as is tradition. Please leave them in the basket in the corner labelled "If I Hear The Phrase Adult Human Female One More Time I Will Scream".

I hate it. Really, really hate it.

It makes me sad, and angry and confused.

It does help me to have insight into how some people feel about their 'misgendering' maybe. But that in turn makes me crosser that women's discomfort with being called cis is so easily glossed over.

I've been referred to as cis in an attempt to paint me as the oppressor ...in a situation in which I was completely disempowered. Horrible.

I don't have a gender identity. I wasn't assigned a gender at birth. I'm biologically female. I'm a woman. I'm not cis.

GAHgamel

’takealettermsjones: If an author wants to refer only to "women who have always been biologically female", doesn't it make sense to have a short way of saying that?’

Yes, which is why if it's useful for clarity I won't bridle if you call me a natal woman, but depending on which definition of cis we're using today it's either offensive or inaccurate. Why offensive? Well if we're using the lazy "it just means non-trans" definition, then you're defining me by what I lack, not by what I am. That's offensive, in a similar way to calling black people "non-white", women "non-men" etc. If we're using the "identifies with the gender associated with their sex" one, it's inaccurate, because I don't identify with the definition of woman that encompasses both transwomen and natal women while excluding natal men, as it seems to rely on a whole load of stereotypes that I've spent most of my life rejecting.

I'm a woman because I'm a human female that's reached adulthood. That's not my identity, it's my reality.

That’s very clearly put. Thank you. That makes total sense to me. Natal woman doesn’t give me the same negative gut reaction as ‘cis’ either.

Another reason why cis is offensive - sounds far too much like the insult that someone is a “cissy.”

Different words should be found to establish gender identity from those used to define sex, since gender and sex are separate issues. Using the word woman in both contexts just muddies the waters. Biological sex is the defining characteristic of a woman. Gender is the make-believe part of being a woman.

It does help me to have insight into how some people feel about their 'misgendering' maybe. But that in turn makes me crosser that women's discomfort with being called cis is so easily glossed over

But the fact that 1% of the population may feel misgendered doesn’t give them the right to misgender 50% of the population.

@Witchcraftandhokum

Thefartingsofaofdenmatkstreet As I've said I was here discussing the etymology of the term 'cis' I was answering a post by somebody else when TheKeatingFive started demanding answers. Anyway I shall take my leave as this thread has gone the predictable way of all 'trans' threads on MN. It's tedious.

Look, if you can't back up what you are saying as soon as you are asked a slightly difficult question then that's fine, leave the thread.

But don't then start talking about MN being a transphobic echo chamber etc.

@thatonehasalittlecar

Very sophist of you: but we don’t make some people’s unscientific colloquial terms official discourse just because it makes them feel comfy in any other arena, do we?

Sure the midwife might say “ooh let’s look at your tummy” or call your genitals your “down below” in conversation; but it doesn’t wash in professional discourse or information, does it? There’s not a special NHS online info sheet about one’s “waterworks” just because some people don’t feel happy using the term “urethra”; and we don’t write PSHE guidelines for the national curriculum calling it a “tuppence” just because some people find it distressing to hear the word vulva.

Imagine if it was proposed that we stop calling men for prostate exams and called them “buttock checks” just because trans men didn’t like the idea they didn’t have prostates. How is that different to making maternity services call it “chest feeding”?

I’m sure there are many complex reasons leading them to do that. Desperation for a family, the innate biological imperative to pass on our genes? Economic, moral and/or social limitations that make it impossible to use alternative means to procreate using surrogacy / IVF etc?

It has only happened once in this country btw.

But instead of sneering at their attempt to navigate an incredibly complex event, why not attempt to understand them?

I'm not sneering at anyone. I'm objecting to people's desire to repurpose language to support the fallacy that someone can be both male and giving birth. Biologically that's nonsense, let's not pretend otherwise.

I guess compassion isn’t one of the ‘feminine’ traits you possess.

Personal digs always help these conversations, don't they?

I do think the trans community get a lot of hate for no other reason than being the newest whipping boy on the block

If you want to see hate then look at transactivists. Look at the death threats sent to JKRowling, at the academics like Jo Phoenix and Kathleen Stock hounded out of their jobs, at the protestor outside the Filia conference on violence against women and girls, at the Netflix employees, at those who objected to a male paedophile walking naked into a women's spa, at the vitriol directed at anyone on twitter who correctly states that a transwoman is a man. Look at the determined attempts to prevent a charity directed at rights of LGB getting charitable status because they do not centre trans. Look at the rambling letter complaining about an article that reported Lesbians being raped and coerced into sex with accusations of transphobia because it made those men look bad.

I am a person with a womb. I am also female. A woman. A ciswoman. I feed from my breast, which is a part of my chest

You are a woman then. There’s no need for any prefix or other description. “Woman” sums you up perfectly.

@scarpa

I've got no issue with it. I am, according the definition of it, a cis woman.

I will dutifully await my 75 replies immediately telling me I'm wrong for having an opinion on this that differs from the mumsnet status quo, as is tradition. Please leave them in the basket in the corner labelled "If I Hear The Phrase Adult Human Female One More Time I Will Scream".

What definition is that then? A definition that some males appropriated from a chemistry term, because they want to lay claim to womanhood?

I guess compassion isn’t one of the ‘feminine’ traits you possess.

Women Be Kind, shift over and give men your space!

@Lovelyricepudding

I guess compassion isn’t one of the ‘feminine’ traits you possess.

Women Be Kind, shift over and give men your space!

Look out! You've been officially voted off the island of womanhood! According to the TRAs, you're no longer a cis woman. Your adoption of male traits makes you a trans man. Your opinions and feelings about this are irrelevant.

@Scoutingformygirls

I hate it. Really, really hate it.

It makes me sad, and angry and confused.

It does help me to have insight into how some people feel about their 'misgendering' maybe. But that in turn makes me crosser that women's discomfort with being called cis is so easily glossed over.

I've been referred to as cis in an attempt to paint me as the oppressor ...in a situation in which I was completely disempowered. Horrible.

I don't have a gender identity. I wasn't assigned a gender at birth. I'm biologically female. I'm a woman. I'm not cis.

Yes, that is the theory that there is 'cis privilege'. This means that a woman is automatically positioned as more privileged than a male, by virtue of said male claiming a 'gender identity'.

1901: women fight for equality and the right to vote.
2021: women fight for the right to be a woman.

I think the logic behind the transgender argument is flawed...
1.The argument is, that the only definition of being a woman/man is that you "feel like a woman/man"

1. But this says nothing meaningful about what it actually means to be a woman/man. It is a circular argument. The definition of a status cannot be that you "feel" you have that status. There has to be an actual, self-supporting, concrete definition of what that status is. As it happens, the definition of a woman is an "adult female human being", not "someone who feels they are an adult female human being". Otherwise, the word "woman" would be a null word with no concrete significance.

I don't know if that makes sense how I explained it.. But when I first heard that argument (articulated much better) I was floored by it and since then haven't been able to take the transgender argument seriously.

No, can't say it worries me. Happy to have different terms to describe those who were born in the body that agrees with their gender and those who were not.

It's interesting. 930 votes, 92% agree with the OP.

That's not even a 'difference of opinion' or a two sided argument. It's a flat out 'fuck off' from women, I would say.

So why on earth are we being subjected to this?

Happy to have different terms to describe those who were born in the body that agrees with their gender and those who were not.

Maybe you can tell us what defines ones gender then?