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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To despise being called ‘cis’?

999 replies

Ostryga · 07/11/2021 19:50

I’m not ‘cis’. I’m not ‘cisgendered’. I’m literally a woman. I’ve just read a guardian article that calls women seeking IVF cisgendered.

Why????

OP posts:
littlbrowndog · 07/11/2021 23:12

Fuck knows arabella

Fuck knows.

Its just wanky shit stuff tbh.

MyOtherProfile · 07/11/2021 23:13

Can cis apply to men too?
Are non trans men cis men?
Or is it just women who have to put up with that?

scarpa · 07/11/2021 23:13

Why do these threads always completely miss the point that cis can be applied to men and that trans men exist too? So weird.

Also, for the PP going on about trans allies being aggressive to JK Rowling etc - the BBC this week literally used a rapist as a source for their article about trans people, who since published an article calling for the extermination of trans people and specifically naming a handful of people (either trans or allies) who should be murdered. But you keep polishing that halo.

thatonehasalittlecar · 07/11/2021 23:15

@foxgoosefinch

I agree with what you say about official language. This entire thread is about specificity in language, and I think it’s incredibly important. But weren’t the guidelines to direct HCPs to offer alternative language when talking to the patient? So if presented with a trans man, offer the term ‘chest feeding’ instead of breastfeeding. Presumably in the medical notes there is no such imperative.

Older mum’s notes mention ‘geriatric’ pregnancy but they are referred to with softer words like ‘older’ and ‘mature’ to their faces.

@TheKeatingFive

So what if it’s only happened once? Isn’t this all about making the world better for everyone? Forging a path to inclusivity and acceptance?

Is anyone suggesting a biological male can give birth? Isn’t this about identity and gender?

And you were sneering. Gosh if they hate the idea of breasts so much why on earth would they want to give birth? It’s nasty.

littlbrowndog · 07/11/2021 23:19

Am summing it all up with my good language

Too many cishet people I've dated only understand my queerness through the reductive definition of being attracted to multiple genders, rather than as a daily struggle for liberatory existence rooted in disrupting archaic norms, structures, and violence that is heteronormativity.

That’s it.

2fallsfromSSA · 07/11/2021 23:19

@GetEmOutByFriday

No, can't say it worries me. Happy to have different terms to describe those who were born in the body that agrees with their gender and those who were not.
You are talking about stereotypes here surely? What else is gender other than a bunch of stereotypes? I don't identify as a woman. I am one.
thatonehasalittlecar · 07/11/2021 23:19

@Lovelyricepudding

Irony isn’t something you recognise easily, is it? I thought I’d make it more obvious with the inverted commas but since you didn’t quite manage to see it, i was taking the piss out of the idea that there are gender specific qualities on a thread all about questioning the notion of gender

foxgoosefinch · 07/11/2021 23:20

That's interesting with regard to the definition of women - so if they are legally, physically, hormonally, societally (etc) women, I wonder what it is that makes them not really women? Is it just that they were not born so? Or is it the chromosome?

Sex is more than just chromosomes, though that is an essential part of it. The key problem is that none of the treatments actually change real aspects of sex characteristics.

Taking a few oestrogen pills does not make any man hormonally a woman. It merely produces some feminising effects on the body. Women produce a lot more female hormones than oestrogen, and trans women take at most one or very occasionally two of these. A bit of oestrogen doesn’t cancel out a lifetime of male sexual hormones and physical development.

Surgery doesn’t make a man physically a woman. Breast implants and a surgical channel are not actual female organs by any stretch of the imagination. They create largely unconvincing cosmetic facsimiles of female body parts. Shaving off bits of your chin and having electrolysis doesn’t change your muscle mass or male physiology.

Legally documents like the GRC acknowledge that they create a legal fiction, not a fact.

Societally [sic]? Very few trans people “pass”, and everyone around them normally knows it. The pretence of believing so, is usually a kind courtesy. Does it mean a man is societally a woman, if everyone around him pretends he is, but knows perfectly well he is not?

This last point I suspect is the key one for all gender ideology, and points to why it is so authoritarian and totalitarian. It’s often a genderist point to argue that a woman who is someone who is “socially” a woman. But few trans women are socially women in pretty much all respects (some are - I worked with one who did, but she had had full surgery a long time ago). Most trans women now don’t have full surgery and don’t pass as women. So does it really count to be “socially” a woman if everyone is just pretending? Presumably not, so we must all be made to believe.

The rage of gender activists seems to be especially targeted at anyone who shows they don’t really believe, no matter how much they are happy to entertain the pretence (look at Kathleen Stock, for example).

Any old man on Twitter can be in practice as bigoted as he likes, as long as he goes along with the belief mantras. A woman who is happy to be kind and tolerant and supportive of trans people, but who doesn’t pretend to believe in the fiction, is absolutely excoriated. I suspect that this is why - it’s projection of rage at the fiction not really being reality.

Blibbyblobby · 07/11/2021 23:21

Why do these threads always completely miss the point that cis can be applied to men and that trans men exist too? So weird.

Because it's not symmetrical. The impact of reproduction and the underlying power dynamic of society favours the male-bodied and so we have female-only rights, provisions and spaces to counteract that. The same is not true in the opposite direction. So the impact on female people of redefining women to include the male-bodied is much more significant than the impact on male people of redefining man to include females.

Of course, if you don't allow yourself to acknowledge that sex is significant in our society regardless of gender identity, you'll never be able to understand that.

ScrollingLeaves · 07/11/2021 23:23

@thatonehasalittlecar
“Do you mean that by saying ‘cisgendered heterosexual’ it clarifies that the couple is not made up of a trans man and a trans woman ( I.e. a biological woman and a biological man ) who don’t want to be called heterosexual because that would upset their sense of identity?

I’m not saying anything about their sense of identity, I’m saying that using the word ‘cisgendered’ is a clarification in this instance. It clarifies that it refers to a couple made up of a bio man and bio woman, rather than a hetero relationship between two people who identify as a man & woman (but may have been born differently).”

What would a heterosexual relationship between two people who identify as a man and a woman (but may have been born differently) entail in practice?

The Guardian article mentioned the NHS fertility treatment offered after two years for cis heterosexual couples.

Whatever the couple are called, the fertility treatment being offered after two years is intended for couples of the opposite biological sex to each other who are trying to conceive together, isn’t it?

TheKeatingFive · 07/11/2021 23:25

Is anyone suggesting a biological male can give birth? Isn’t this about identity and gender?

Ok. Perhaps you can tell us what defines gender.

I live in hope.

Gosh if they hate the idea of breasts so much why on earth would they want to give birth? It’s nasty.

What I have a problem with someone saying it's intolerable to live in a female body. Simultaneously having the ultimate 'living in a female body experience' by getting pregnant. Simultaneously demanding male references so that they can create the paradox that they can be both male and giving birth.

In fairness to this hypothetical person, they may not be demanding that last bit. That's people like you.

But yes, interested to hear your definition of gender should you care to share.

Jujujuly · 07/11/2021 23:26

Thank you @Blibbyblobby and @foxgoosefinch for your excellent posts on this.

Thelnebriati · 07/11/2021 23:27

The 'clarification' is only needed as long as a group has decided that lesbians (defined as women who are same sex attracted in equality law) are suddenly 'cis'.

foxgoosefinch · 07/11/2021 23:28

@littlbrowndog

Am summing it all up with my good language

Too many cishet people I've dated only understand my queerness through the reductive definition of being attracted to multiple genders, rather than as a daily struggle for liberatory existence rooted in disrupting archaic norms, structures, and violence that is heteronormativity.

That’s it.

Oh what rubbish. I’m a bi women who’s lived as a lesbian most of my life. I can wager you I was theorising about “heteronormativity” before you were born. Round about the time that most gay people were absolutely desperate to be allowed to have all the nice things heterosexuals got - like marriage, tax breaks, next of kin rights, pension rights, employment protection, and all those boring old things you presumably are far too busy struggling for liberatory existence and disrupting archaic norms to think important.

But when you get to go in and see your partner in the ICU and enjoy bringing them to a work event, remember all those boring unqueer gay and straight people who actually did the work of making that possible, precisely because they weren’t self-indulgent twits who gas on about “the violence that is heteronormativity”. Just listen to yourself FFS.

Lalliella · 07/11/2021 23:32

It’s beyond offensive. How dare people who are so very insistent in shouting from the rooftops how they identify and how they want to be labelled, tell natural born, true biological women how we should be labelled? Fuck off with that cis bullshit.

Lovelyricepudding · 07/11/2021 23:32

the BBC this week literally used a rapist as a source for their article about trans people

As a source of the phrase 'cotter ceiling' but yeah keep ignoring the fact that the article was about lesbians being raped and sexually coerced.

Tumtitumtum · 07/11/2021 23:38

I am waiting for the day work insist on pronouns on emails because I think that might be the hill I die on.

littlbrowndog · 07/11/2021 23:38

My irony fox should of said

I saw it on Twitter and kinda summed up all this blah blah shite that is spoken

Like cis

Like chest feeding

Like in Scotland people die from cervical cancer according to latest tv campaign. Can’t imagine who these people are ?

Can’t say the word women. Yet not quite bold enough to say the word cis women out loud in public…..yet

Language matters

We are women not the cis whatever they are

ScrollingLeaves · 07/11/2021 23:41

From the Cambridge on line dictionary.

heterosexual
adjective
UK /ˌhet.ər.əˈsek.ʃu.əl/ US /ˌhet̬.ə.roʊˈsek.ʃu.əl/
(informal hetero)

sexually attracted to people of the opposite sex:
‘I'm a heterosexual, white male from a reasonably privileged background.’

involving people who are sexuallyattracted to people of the oppositesex:

‘Their kids were products of earlierheterosexual relationships.
heterosexual sex’

foxgoosefinch · 07/11/2021 23:42

@littlbrowndog

My irony fox should of said

I saw it on Twitter and kinda summed up all this blah blah shite that is spoken

Like cis

Like chest feeding

Like in Scotland people die from cervical cancer according to latest tv campaign. Can’t imagine who these people are ?

Can’t say the word women. Yet not quite bold enough to say the word cis women out loud in public…..yet

Language matters

We are women not the cis whatever they are

Agree - sorry for assuming those were your words if they weren’t!
thatonehasalittlecar · 07/11/2021 23:43

@ScrollingLeaves yes, I think that’s what they are referring to. But by using the word ‘cisgendered’ they are presumably trying to avoid any confusion from people who may not believe the word ‘heterosexual’ to refer to opposite sex attracted people (instead believing it can refer to opposite gender attracted people).

@TheKeatingFive

Why do you have a problem with that? You’re taking it weirdly personally. Trans men aren’t rejecting females, they are embracing males. Why does it matter at all to you what they do? You might not understand it (I must confess I don’t myself) but you don’t need to get involved.

You don’t believe that men can give birth because you only determine male and female in terms of sex (presumably a mix of genitalia, hormones and chromosomes). Ok, that’s your belief system. Is anyone really trying to force you to believe otherwise? I mean, ignoring the gutter snakes on twitter and the like.

I don’t know how to define gender. I know I am more than just the sum of my body parts, and I know that my identity and beliefs and the way I exist in the world is a combination of my nature and nurture. I don’t know if I believe in innate differences between the sexes because I don’t know how to extricate the millennia of social conditioning from my loved experience. Do I believe a person who has had a lifetime of living as a woman will see the world in the same way as someone who has just started living that way? Probably not. But then, how do I see a middle aged woman or a teenage girl? Is one less of a woman than the other? Or are they both on a spectrum? And if the latter, then can’t we make room on the spectrum for trans women?

FWIW I think the way certain people have been treated with regard their beliefs about it being impossible to change sex is horrific. But I just can’t bring myself to get upset about a term like cis.

Cis woman and woman are not mutually exclusive. Would I call myself cis? No, I can’t imagine a scenario where I would ever need to. But I wouldn’t be offended if someone felt it was a helpful clarification to describe me thus.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 07/11/2021 23:47

@GetEmOutByFriday

No, can't say it worries me. Happy to have different terms to describe those who were born in the body that agrees with their gender and those who were not.
But in this ideology most women aren't cis as they don't have a gender identity. There can therefore be no such agreement. What do we call those women?
scarpa · 07/11/2021 23:51

@Blibbyblobby

Why do these threads always completely miss the point that cis can be applied to men and that trans men exist too? So weird.

Because it's not symmetrical. The impact of reproduction and the underlying power dynamic of society favours the male-bodied and so we have female-only rights, provisions and spaces to counteract that. The same is not true in the opposite direction. So the impact on female people of redefining women to include the male-bodied is much more significant than the impact on male people of redefining man to include females.

Of course, if you don't allow yourself to acknowledge that sex is significant in our society regardless of gender identity, you'll never be able to understand that.

Of course I understand that. And despite being a very long way away from the general mindset of most of this thread, I think conversations about sex when talking about trans rights are important.

My comment was largely triggered by the comment a few before mine, saying that cis has a definition created by men to weasel their way into female spaces, or something to that effect. As though only trans women exist, or only trans women and their allies have an agenda.

Nobody ever accuses trans men of being trans for nefarious purposes. Nobody spends entire threads implying trans men have a deviant sexual fetish. So I assume by that measure people are largely happy to assume that, whether or not they understand it or even think it's 'right', trans men aren't acting maliciously. Yet almost every thread I see on here descends into assuming all trans women are fetishists, trying to gain access to female spaces for nefarious purposes, etc.

I know you can't entirely extract the social power dynamic from anything and I know the power dynamic between male bodied and female bodied people might be a consideration for some bad faith actors using this as a cover, in a way that isn't possible for trans men because patriarchy.

But I find it wild that the starting assumption about 'motive' is so different.

Elleextra · 07/11/2021 23:52

you only determine male and female in terms of sex

That's literally how male and female are determined.

TheKeatingFive · 07/11/2021 23:54

Why do you have a problem with that? You’re taking it weirdly personally. Trans men aren’t rejecting females, they are embracing males. Why does it matter at all to you what they do?

Because language matters a great deal and I find the attempt to decouple what a woman's body does from being a biological woman pretty damn sinister actually.

That's not taking it personally, it's understanding the wider consequences of trying to maintain bizarre illusions.

You don’t believe that men can give birth because you only determine male and female in terms of sex (presumably a mix of genitalia, hormones and chromosomes). Ok, that’s your belief system

Well more than that, it's biological reality. But okay I'll go with it.

Is anyone really trying to force you to believe otherwise?

What they're trying to do is gaslight me into thinking that the biological facts don't matter. That's my problem with all this. People can 'identify' as much as they like, try to sweep the fact that you can't actually change sex under the carpet like it doesn't matter, but of course it matters. A male body will always be a male body and that's a big issue for female spaces, for female sports and in areas like giving birth which is a female specific activity.

I don’t know how to define gender.

Ok, thought so

i know I am more than just the sum of my body parts, and I know that my identity and beliefs and the way I exist in the world is a combination of my nature and nurture

Of course, but you don't need a gender identity that you can't define for all that. We all have distinct and individual personalities.

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