Friends DD threw my daughter to the ground

[AmIInside]

Friends daughter is 9 (same age as my DD). My DD is very into dancing and dances constantly. She dances in the house, around the living room, in her bedroom, in the garden, in the shops, in the street - constantly. She loves it.
Friends DD does karate and often practices that too.
Yesterday we were walking home from school and DD was dancing. Friends DD told her to “stop it” saying she was annoying and said “even my mum thinks you’re annoying, don’t you mum?”. Friend went bright red and said she’d never said that and her DD said “yes you did! You said “why can’t she just walk normal, remember?” Friend quickly changed the subject but was clearly embarrassed. I felt really awkward. Didn’t know what to say. DD said “I don’t care that I annoy you, if I want to dance I will do” and started to exaggerate her dancing a little and was swirling around us all. I told her to walk properly before she ends up crashing into someone. She swirled in front of friends DD who grabbed her and threw her to the floor. She landed awkwardly in a muddy puddle and really hurt her arm. She cried like mad 😢 friend told her DD off and told her to apologise, she refused saying DD started it and should just walk normal (echoing what her mum had obviously said). In anger DD shouted that friend was too ugly to be a dancer and that’s why she’s jealous. I told her off for that remark obviously but friends did retorted that DD was an attention seeking idiot and everyone thought so, even the teachers.

Anyway it got horrible and nasty. I can’t stop thinking about it.

Did she deserve to be thrown on the floor? I don’t think so. AIBU to message the mum and tell her how upset I am about the fact she’s clearly been slagging DD off at home?

Oh and your daughter calling her friend ugly shows up a pretty mean and nasty streak which you need to nip in the bud (and already internalising the patriarchal misogyny that women are worthy for their looks more than anything).

I’m quite surprised the amount of people saying ‘she shouldn’t have pushed, but’

No. Violence is never acceptable. At 9 they know better. I don’t know if your DD was dancing literally in front of them or getting in their face, if so that’s not acceptable either. But still doesn’t give someone the right to get physical and violent.

Guess I best make sure I don’t annoy my husband otherwise I may end up on the ground.

@BoredZelda I’m a bit confused that you seem adamant everyone is saying violence is fine when it’s literally post after post saying that the karate child was wrong

That does mean however that things are black and white. Her being wrong doesn’t mean that there aren’t any mitigating circumstances - not excuses, not saying what she did is ok but it’s not like she walked up to a child and just randomly attacked her. We only have the OP’s version of events but it sounds a lot like her DD was in this other child’s personal space, repeatedly in her face after being told to stop. How long should this other child have tolerated that for in your opinion? I would never ever want my children to push another child but honestly if my daughter was having her personal space invaded against her will, I wouldn’t be entirely upset that she stood up for herself and defended her boundaries rather than just being meek and letting her physical space be someone else’s playground. The OP should have stepped in and stopped her bratty daughter from antagonising the other child before she took matters into her own hands.

Violence is never ok and no one is saying it is. We’re just also saying that imposing yourself into someone else’s personal space against there will is also not ok and if you repeatedly do that you can’t be that surprised when at some point someone shoves you.

except that literally nobody has said that. Nobody.

I think your DD provoked her friend and paid the price for that, then turned nasty calling her friend ugly!!

I think your DD was at least equally in the wrong if not more as she was the one provoking the situation.

But she carried on being antagonistic and show-offy. I'm actually not surprised she was pushed over.

Sounds like your dd is a spoilt show off. Nobody likes that.

Your DD sounds an annoying pain in the neck. You should have stepped when she was misbehaving.

And there are more. Plenty of people are saying that.

Violence is never ok and no one is saying it is.

Except they are as per my PP

@AmIInside

This was on the way home, she’s practicing for a Christmas show

So why does that make it OK? She needs to be told to walk properly in public places before she causes an accident. Save the dancing for somewhere appropriate

@BoredZelda

was from ANOTHER GIRL who didn't want some whirling dervish in her face.

So girls should accept violence if it comes from another girl?

Not ONE personhas said it's ok to push someone to the ground (karate or not).

The karate part of it is actually important. It shows intent. Pushing a person which results in them falling over is partly accidental. The push can be to get them away and the fall was a result of over-pushing. Far more common for kids to do this and not something to be overly bothered about. Using a manoeuvre designed to throw a child to the floor means that is exactly what the child intended to happen. That is not ok.

So a girl shouldn't have her wants listened to and should just put up with someone else annoying her?

Where did OP say she used a manoeuvre? She said she "grabbed her and threw her to the floor" she didn't flip her or do a karate move.

To be honest you were at fault for not stepping in more quickly.

Responding to and respecting other people's boundaries is an important life skill.

No, she shouldn't have been pushed over.

No, you shouldn't contact the other parent - let the kids work it out between them.

And yes you definitely need to find out where your dd has got this idea that dancers must not be “ugly” and that she is pretty enough to be one. If it’s coming from her dance instructor you need to move her to a different class. Or maybe it’s coming from home…

And yes the other child was way out of order.

@WindWash

"It won't have been a karate move, it's a child grabbing another and shoving her."

Quite.

And isn't this the point at which we're all told how much stronger and harder dancers are than athletes, anyway?

OP, it was 2 kids having a moment.

It wasn't Chris Eubank giving Wayne Sleep a right hook.

@BoredZelda

Violence is never ok and no one is saying it is.

Except they are as per my PP

Yes loads of justifying violence on here. I'm shocked by it, not the normal MN position on violence. I wonder what would be said if a boy had been the violent one?

@BoredZelda

except that literally nobody has said that. Nobody.

I think your DD provoked her friend and paid the price for that, then turned nasty calling her friend ugly!!

I think your DD was at least equally in the wrong if not more as she was the one provoking the situation.

But she carried on being antagonistic and show-offy. I'm actually not surprised she was pushed over.

Sounds like your dd is a spoilt show off. Nobody likes that.

Your DD sounds an annoying pain in the neck. You should have stepped when she was misbehaving.

And there are more. Plenty of people are saying that.

You have quoted me there. I said the OP’s daughter was as much in the wrong. Ergo they are both in the wrong and I am not condoning violence. I’m also saying that being shoved isn’t some kind of trump card that negates the shitty behaviour that preceded the shoving. People can be horrible to each other in all sorts of ways, I don’t think we need to rank them do we?

It's a case of everyone being in the wrong.
DD should know that there is a time and place to practice her dancing.
Friend DD shouldn't have hit/pushed DD.
Hurtful remarks were issued by both children.
It's a draw, I'd let it be.

Your "friend" is no friend to be saying unkind things about your dd behind her back.

A 9yo is perfectly old enough to know what she is doing repeating the unkind comments though, it is deliberate.

The dc who was violent was much more in the wrong that the dc who was irritating.

I would let the school her dd had assaulted yours know in case there is any further conflict at school, and I'd stay clear of the pair of them.

It sounds like you have already pulled your dd up on calling her ugly, which is right too.

There are throws in karate so that’s a bit disingenuous. There’s a throw where you take the opponents arm and throw them over your body. It’s all supposed to be used for self defence, but people do use the moves to attack people.

Anyway we don’t know that she’s not doing more general martial arts including judo.

Because karate is about self defence.

But kids don't always stick to that, do they?

They are 9 years old and don't know social niceties yet and need their parents to teach them.

Few 9 year olds know how to respond to a conflict that is causing them intense feelings, many adults would struggle to respond to someone purposely upsetting them and not backing off when asked. You could clearly see the other dd was getting annoyed and upset, you could see your dd was inappropriately responding to this by upping the ante and getting more and more in her face. You should have dealt with it properly before it escalated.

What does thrown to the floor mean? Did she do a karate move on her or push her out of her space and she fell over? A karate throw is unacceptable and her mum needs to have a serious talk to her about using karate outside of the club.

Pushing her out of her space when the two ineffectual adults with her were doing nothing to help her find another way out off the situation isn't ideal, but more understandable.

@NotTheMrMenAgain no it isn’t ok for the other girl to “demonstrate her hobby” by hurting the other girl - If she took karate seriously she would know that.
She physically hurt her and wasn’t sorry when she did.

And to fair the Friend didn’t just politely ask the DD to stop , she insulted her then tried to get her mother to join in too. It doesn’t sound like the OPs DD set out to annoy her in the beginning she was just dancing then when the friend started telling her off and trying to get her mother to tell her off she stepped it up. Obviously not a great reaction depending on how close she was getting to her friend or what kind of moves she was doing I don’t know.
The OPs DD dancing has obviously been bothering the friend for some time imo

Ooo this is taking me back to my oldest niece. She went through a phase of high leg kicking everywhere and it drove her mum and everyone else nuts. It didn't matter that she's a talented dancer - I can't tell you how annoying it was.

Hope your DD is ok, I dread the day my DD is old enough to fall out with the kids of my friends.

I said the OP’s daughter was as much in the wrong. Ergo they are both in the wrong and I am not condoning violence.

By giving them equal blame, you are actually condoning violence.

This is an incredibly frustrating thread. A few posters who clearly have reading comprehension issues. Apparently it’s ‘justifying violence’ if you point out that the person who got shoved was also behaving very poorly. YES violence is always wrong. It absolutely doesn’t mean that anything that came before said violence is cancelled out and isn’t worth reflecting on and rectifying. FFS!

@Cissyandflora

Your daughter sounds like a pain in the arse. Use this opportunity to explain that people won’t always tolerate her. I’m not surprised the other mum has been talking about her at home. So would I. She definitely shouldn’t be thrown to the ground of course- but the fact that she told her friend she was ugly shows that she is not very nice. And not very boundaried. If someone called my daughter ugly they would be pirouetted into the distance faster than they could cha cha cha.

So you think violence is OK? Did you notice that she called the other girl ugly after she had been thrown to the ground and was crying in pain?

@MadAntonia

Your daughter has the right to dance - and how wonderful that she does.

She shouldn’t have to treat what others find ‘annoying’ as a reference point.

Her friend assaulted her - now, that is a problem, as is the fact that her friend refuses to take responsibility for her actions.

9 is about the age when female children are bullied into being ‘good’ little girls, who conform to societal expectations. Behave, be a pleaser, put others’ needs and wants first.

In other words - stop dancing (literally and metaphorically).

Teachers and parents should not be referring to any child as ‘annoying’ - certainly not within earshot of other children. It’s bullying and deeply inappropriate.

Your daughter called her friend ‘ugly’, but it sounds like something a desperate child would say in response to having been hurt, physically and emotionally. And you did hold her accountable, so you are clearly teaching her respect for others.

I think too many people in this world ‘walk normal’ because they’re afraid to dance.

So, no - your daughter did not ‘deserve’ to be thrown to the floor. No one does. We live in a world that tolerates (and normalises) violence towards women, so it’s really important that she understands that she wasn’t at fault, and that what her friend did was wrong.

Texting her friend’s mother might be a good idea, just to clear the air. This could be done gently, and on the premise of the well-being of both girls.

You’re a great mum.

May your daughter dance forever.

Excellent post.

I wonder what would be said if a boy had been the violent one?

Ah, well boys are evil on MN so obviously he would need to be arrested and a non molestation order put in place.