AIBU to think that team should be available at 9am for meetings?

[Overthebow]

I set up a weekly client meeting for my project team at 9am. I have had a decline from a key team member as it clashes with school drop of time. AIBU to think that 9am is a standard working time and my team should be available to attend important client calls at this time, unless they have a formal working hours agreement in place?

God, Hope your DH's staff and your lawyer friend, if they have kids, have a "housewife type person" at home to hold it all together.

I think this is an assumption that many organisation who offer little flexibility make.
My DH's organisation definitely assumes this.....

I'm all for a drive towards more flexibility and employer shift, but it has to apply to all employees. At present, I'm just seeing a two-tier system - employees without kids are beholden to the 'old way' because someone needs to cover all of those with a need for flexibility. I'm jaded, perhaps, but there we are.

@TheKeatingFive

So she wanted to moan and just made up details.

No, she assumed 9-5. Hardly radical.

Yes I think presuming someone definitely works through same hours as you is very odd.

Then adding in then don't have core hours, is very odd. Especially, if they do.

Nothing actually important gets done in a meeting

Sounds like you're going to the wrong sort of meeting. I agree too many are like this, but it's not actually obligatory

OP's situation isn't clear enough to give a proper answer since it's a mix of set hours and flexi and we don't know which applies to this member of staff. However since this meeting is a reasonable client need because of the time zones, it's hardly unfair to expect staff to accommodate it

Unless they want clients to walk of course, in which case they could all be looking for another job pretty soon

@Overthebow

To answer some questions, we don't have official core hours. The company is reasonably flexible but 9am has always been considered a standard working time and 9am meetings are not unusual.

The meeting is with a client in another time zone, and they have set the meeting time. It is not negotiable, especially as team member are from many countries so trying to find a suitable time to accommodate lots of different time zones is tricky. Starting later would mean someone else has to finish work late.

If this makes a difference we are all employed and are reasonably well-paid, well above the average UK wage.

Your original post said you set up the meeting not the client. Surely starting 15 minutes later isn't going to be a huge deal. Alternatively start the meeting and the other person joins as soon as they are back from the school run

I think the people who complain about this really need to wake up and realise how good they've got it already - flex working/ WFH was never an option 15-20 years ago when my DC were small, and I had to often be out of the house 7am-7pm or longer most days.

What's that got to do with anything?

Yes I think presuming someone definitely works through same hours as you is very odd

You think assuming someone who works in an office works 9-5 is odd?

Not unreasonable at all. I'd think an 8 a.m one was but 9 is standard working time.

Charliesbookmaker it simply isn't the case that everyone who'd refuse to do a 9am is going to end up out of work sooner or later. Some people are sufficiently in demand that they can enforce this. And your views on that being entitled and unhinged are merely your personal opinion and therefore irrelevant. It's just business.

@TheKeatingFive

Yes I think presuming someone definitely works through same hours as you is very odd

You think assuming someone who works in an office works 9-5 is odd?

It is quite odd when 9.30 to 5.30, 8 to 4 and other similar variations are so common.

I think the people who complain about this really need to wake up and realise how good they've got it already - flex working/ WFH was never an option 15-20 years ago when my DC were small, and I had to often be out of the house 7am-7pm or longer most days.

I used to have to carry my horse to school through the snow and my grandad worked eight days a week down the pit and grateful for it, be grateful for your lot and don’t you workers dare to demand better…

A lot of managers and employers have never experienced such a constrained labour market before and are starting to get a shock that actually the employees they expected to be grateful supplicants might actually have some power in the relationship.

A lot of managers and employers have never experienced such a constrained labour market before and are starting to get a shock that actually the employees they expected to be grateful supplicants might actually have some power in the relationship.

THIS!!!

Just find a way to accommodate your team member OP. Maybe they can join at 9:15? Maybe they can drop the kids a little earlier that day? Parents have to take children to school.

Grenlei, maybe some people have raised their standards and aren't willing to sacrifice so much of their time to work as they used to. In the 1980's, 90's I didn't see my Dad in the evenings except at the weekends as he was always in some office working the long hours, time he could have had with his children, something he really regrets now as a 70 year old man! Wondering what the point was actually. Where is the joy in life when it is just about work and a competition to work the longest hours possible in a day! I love meeting my youngest from primary school, walking home with her and chatting, I would say it is one of the loveliest parts of my day. It helps that it is a nice walk. I love speaking with my eldest about his day. Time with my DC is really valuable.

at the same time a polite request for a minor change in start time for a meeting would be unlikely to be a deal-breaker

of course it wouldn't, and it never was. If someone says to me "can you do x time" and I can't, I say no, I can't do x time but can you do y.

How difficult is it?

Of course quite different when it's a large group and then you may have to move meetings around to get everyone together. Or accept that someone may be sitting in their car doing the meeting.

15 years ago I used to have a weekly late afternoon meeting which interfered with a nursery pick-up. It was with a team on the US west coast and apparently they couldn't get up early to accommodate the UK team, we had to stay late to accommodate them. So I used to leave office early, pick up ds, do meeting at home. Flexibility (of sorts) isn't a new thing.

@Grenlei

YANBU OP.

It's more examples of people using WFH as an excuse for being slack. Having been a single parent to 2 children, with a very long commute and having always worked FT, I have fuck all sympathy for people bleating about dialling into a call or Teams meeting at 9 because they HAVE to drop their kids at school.

Either put your hand in your pocket and pay for breakfast club/ childminder/ au pair/ whatever OR request flex working so you start at 9.15 or 9.30.

Unfortunately in our organisation we have a lot of people who seem to think now they are WFH it's carte blanche to say 'Oh I'll start at 8, log off at 8.45, back on at 9.15, off at 2.45 and back on at 3.15' and think that is absolutely fine.

If you want to do that, work 8.30-2.30. Because everyone knows no work gets done in the 45 mins in the morning, you can't make any calls because it's before business hours and the reality is you're running round looking for little Freddie's PE kit or Holly's lunchbox. And after 3.15, there's not much work either due to kids being home and needing a snack, drinks, refereeing etc.

I think the people who complain about this really need to wake up and realise how good they've got it already - flex working/ WFH was never an option 15-20 years ago when my DC were small, and I had to often be out of the house 7am-7pm or longer most days.

So idiotic.

Most employees in office jobs stay late and / or work through their lunch hour. IMHO most bosses being fixed on 9.00am on the dot risk losing a net 1 hour 27 mins of work per person every day when their staff swap flexible start times for fixed one hour lunches and 5.30 finishes. My old boss certainly did, the petty arsehole.

Your original post said you set up the meeting not the client. Surely starting 15 minutes later isn't going to be a huge deal.
I'd imagine she means she set it up in the technical sense, having been told by the client what time they wanted it.

OP, I think they're taking the piss. 9am is a totally reasonable time to expect someone to be available.

A lot of managers and employers have never experienced such a constrained labour market before and are starting to get a shock that actually the employees they expected to be grateful supplicants might actually have some power in the relationship

Yes employers need to start treating their employees as the talent they are, not as resources who just need to work all hours and shut up because it's a privilege to have a job.

And I don't think anyone is looking for your sympathy or pity or even give you and your opinion a second thought when they are following the values that are important to them.

I used to have a manager like you op. We have no family near us and one of my dds has mild sn. Not all schools have ad hoc wrap around that you can book as a one off. She expected early log ins at the drop of a hat. Not sure what she expected me to do - magically get the school gates to open earlier? Find a local family that can seat both my kids as well as theirs in their car and don’t mind collecting from mine early?

@JassyRadlett

I think the people who complain about this really need to wake up and realise how good they've got it already - flex working/ WFH was never an option 15-20 years ago when my DC were small, and I had to often be out of the house 7am-7pm or longer most days.

I used to have to carry my horse to school through the snow and my grandad worked eight days a week down the pit and grateful for it, be grateful for your lot and don’t you workers dare to demand better…

A lot of managers and employers have never experienced such a constrained labour market before and are starting to get a shock that actually the employees they expected to be grateful supplicants might actually have some power in the relationship.

It is a very significant change we're living through. In fairness it isn't just employers who struggle comprehending it either. I remember a thread a few months ago where a local pharmacy kept shutting early because there weren't enough staff. Some posters were uncomprehending of the idea that there might not actually be enough locum pharmacists available and willing to work to keep pharmacies staffed.

resources who just need to work all hours and shut up because it's a privilege to have a job.

9am is 'all hours'?

A lot of managers and employers have never experienced such a constrained labour market before and are starting to get a shock that actually the employees they expected to be grateful supplicants might actually have some power in the relationship

This is true; however at the end of the day it's not the employees who are doing the actual paying

Certainly highly skilled staff are better able to call the shots than others, but often the difficulty is that folk think they're irreplaceable ... and often it's just not so

Dropping young children at school is one of life's joys. Lots of us have had really constructive, effective careers while doing that and getting to work 15, 20, 30 minutes later, then taking a shorter lunch or working a longer day. Working from home has given lots of previously stressed parents a chance to live at a different pace. Don't make it difficult for this employee unless the timing is utterly critical.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

A lot of managers and employers have never experienced such a constrained labour market before and are starting to get a shock that actually the employees they expected to be grateful supplicants might actually have some power in the relationship

This is true; however at the end of the day it's not the employees who are doing the actual paying

Certainly highly skilled staff are better able to call the shots than others, but often the difficulty is that folk think they're irreplaceable ... and often it's just not so

At what cost the replacement and getting the new person up to speed? All just because someone turns up 5 minutes late before working through their lunch and staying late.

Another reason to leave any job with a petty boss is this. Traffic is so erratic that if you have a half hour commute you probably need to get in 30 minutes early every single day in order to always get in a 9am or earlier. Surely better your staff are happier and rested and occasionally come in late (bearing in mind they do extra every day anyway).

The last boss to try pettiness with me genuinely lost around 90 minutes of labour a day because he thought having a moan at me was a good idea.