AIBU to think that team should be available at 9am for meetings?

[Overthebow]

I set up a weekly client meeting for my project team at 9am. I have had a decline from a key team member as it clashes with school drop of time. AIBU to think that 9am is a standard working time and my team should be available to attend important client calls at this time, unless they have a formal working hours agreement in place?

Our core hours are 10-4. Pre Covid most people were there between 7-8 am and left around 4/4.30. One colleague used to come in at 10 everyday, which she was entitled to do. This wasn't due to childcare she just preferred to work later and functioned better later in the day. Regularly team meetings were put in for 8 in the morning, which meant she would have to change her preferred working pattern in those days. I often used to work a bit later and we would be the only ones in the office after 5. We did try and put in a meeting with some people in the team for 4 and it was as if we had asked them to come in on Sunday. They were completely inflexible yet expected the same of my colleague. Keep meetings to core hours and then everyone is happy

@iwishiwasafish

I think a key point is that you say this team member is essential to the meeting.

In that case, particularly with it being a regular meeting, you need to work with her to find a time that works for her as well as the rest of the team.

Scheduling it at a time that doesn’t work for her, without consulting her, when she is essential to the meeting … it’s a dick move and implies that you are just trying to create drama.

Without any more knowledge of the particular circumstances, @Overthebow, I am inclined to agree with @iwishiwasafish. I'm at a loss to understand why you wouldn't discuss this with the key team member herself first instead of coming to MN and moaning about her.

It is entirely possible this parent does morning drop off so that the other parent can get a very early start and be available at pick up time while our employee works through.

My husband works for an international company and meetings aren't "weekly at 9am" to suit the other side of the world, meetings rotate so that everyone takes a turn at having the more social / less social hours.

Until you have dialogue, you won't reach a better understanding.

Attitudes like yours @Overthebow are the reason why people leave companies.

So SLT in London schools should be understanding when teachers are late and arrive after 8:30. Surely parents should recognise @sausageflowers point.
When I worked in the office in London no one was expected to be there at 9. Unless I wanted to call up the mayor of London and ask him why I can never be at work on time because of tubes and train delays! I think the other way round, people in U.K. have longer working hours than most in Europe, generally less rights and less pay. Any slack in a business is basically what props people up from not having more serious issues at home
Nice to see that some MNers are campaigning to have SLT be more realistic about teachers getting to school on time.
My daughter is a Headteacher at an inner city school and already has huge recruitment problems. It is so expensive to live locally so teachers live further out and travel in.Perhaps teachers should look for more understanding employers. Oh, wait a second , they already are. Teachers dropping out are at a record high
www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorrison/2021/06/17/record-one-in-six-teachers-quit-after-just-a-year-in-the-classroom/
Recruitment of teachers is a huge issue, particularly for inner city schools. Why teach when you can have a cosy work from home, drop kids off at school and work for a really understanding, family friendly management?

@MiddleParking

Everyone thinks you’re a dickhead for putting in a weekly 9am call, just so you know.

yup.

You'll get way more from your team if you trust them to manage their time, be flexible with childcare, and start meetings later. Nobody thinks you're a 'good boss' for towing a hard line.

@hilariousnamehere fortunately its only a couple of times a year but given the discussion here on Mumsnet, I thought I'd keep an eye on it.

Generally in work life I think people fall into 2 camps those that like the strict rule book, and all its attendant pettiness and judgment, and those that focus on the work, people and productivity. I know which one I prefer

How do employees with children manage that?

We do what employees with children have always done: juggle and pay for people to help us.

When I was a University lecturer I wish someone had told the timetables that 9.00am was an unreasonable time to start. It is routine for lectures to start then.

9am does not allow for any team members who might have transport issued etc.
It hardly allows people to settle at their desks and then catch up on the emails etc from other company site or clients abroad either.
Just move the meeting by 30min and make everyone's life a bit more chilled.
There's always one who wants life in the fast lane in every office team, just relax and you'll get more work and respect from the team for your empathy and understanding.

9am does not allow for any team members who might have transport issued etc. it does. No one should be aiming to get to work bang on 9. Always leave time for traffic issues.

A 9am meeting actually requires your team to start at least 15 minutes early doesn’t it? Most office jobs need a 15-30 minute email scan for urgent issues before starting.

I should add that I have 9am meetings 2 days a week and start at 8.30 on those days and dh does school run. It does depend on the job though. Obviously a teacher or a nurse is very different to my role so different standards. I also get calls at 4am and have to do my job bleary eyed so there’s usually a flip side to flexibility.

@Nocaloriesinchocolate

When I was a University lecturer I wish someone had told the timetables that 9.00am was an unreasonable time to start. It is routine for lectures to start then.

It's not at my university! 9.15 is our earliest start and have been told not to book in on campus meetings with colleagues before 10.15 but this is more to do with people wanting to avoid the busiest times on public transport due to covid.

Another thought - in all the meetings Ive ever attended (sweeping generalisation alert) the first 10 minutes or so have been chitchat - how are you?, wasn’t the traffic bad.good, who’d like coffee etc, etc - so the real work didn’t get started until 10 minutes or so into the meeting anyway so a late comer wouldn’t have a problem. The only exception was volunteer meetings in the evenings when everyone wanted to finish quickly to reconvene at the pub before closing time

@PaintedDaisy

9am does not allow for any team members who might have transport issued etc. it does. No one should be aiming to get to work bang on 9. Always leave time for traffic issues.

So everyone should get to work well before the time they are paid for? No thanks. I am not working for free.

YANBU. It's the best time for people from all time zones. Should the other parties from all around the world have to fit in with this one person's school run?

We have a daily team call at 8.30am because it fits in with our colleagues in Sweden, Germany and NZ. One UK colleague has to leave for the school run during the meeting. They stay on the call via their phone if their presence is necessary.

Besides, it's only once a week, not every day. If this employee has an issue with fitting childcare around their work commitments they should address it by requesting a flexible working arrangement. They can't just decline meetings according to their personal schedule and expect everyone else to fit in around them.

@KingsleyShacklebolt My OP is self-employed and much in demand. No one has ever turned down business because he cant do the exact time the client wants. TBH it is normal for both to have to work out a mutually convenient time.

@larkle

There is a different expectation for teachers. I am contracted to start work at 9am but guess what? I'm in school by 8am every day so that I'm 'warmed up'.

If only my warm-up involved making myself a drink and checking my emails rather than rushing around like a lunatic for an hour before my 6hr long 'meeting' starts 🙄

Honestly the discussion about teachers is stupid. Some jobs you have to be face to face for at a set time. My bus driver cant decide a later start time either in spite of massive recruitment issues with bus drivers.

Why should companies pander to those with childcare responsibilities?

I think we forget that businesses hire people and people have needs. If you can't cope with what that brings, don't have a business, don't hire people.

We all have caring responsibilies or needs at one point of our lives. We have children, elderly, illnesses. We have lives.

Where I work, lots of colleagues with no childcare responsibilities use flexible/condensed hours. It genuinely benefits everyone and motivates staff to care more about work and work harder because they buy into you as a business that looks after its staff. If they don't, you're recruiting the wrong people and you need to look at your recruitment processes.

@Brefugee

How do employees with children manage that?

We do what employees with children have always done: juggle and pay for people to help us.

No everywhere has childcare options that open past 6pm and 7.30 is the earliest I've seen in the area we live.

Me and DH are able to juggle lots between us but we have no family help and our childcare operates between 8am and 5.30 which isn't that uncommon. DH's work often schedules meetings onsite at 8.30 and at 5/6pm making it impossible for him to get involved in drops offs and pick ups. We only manage it because I have an enormous amount of flexibility.

While i know it very much depends the job and I don't think it is is unreasonable to schedule occasional late/early meetings with notice I do think some organisations could offer a more family friendly approach to their working practices.
Many families now have two working adults so I don't think it's unreasonable for working patterns to shift in line with societal changes.

No one should be aiming to get to work bang on 9. Always leave time for traffic issues.

i used to have flexible starts between 7 and 9 and flexible finish (haha) from 4pm. Fine for anyone under the position of manager - they clocked in and out and got their overtime paid up to a certain number of hours.

Everyone above manager didn't have to clock in and out but we were expected to behave responsibly - so if our (Asian) CEO wanted a meeting that was 7:30 for us, we had to be there. And back in the day when i had little DCs and a DH who started work at 6am, it was a flipping struggle. But i got a childminder and got on with it. And so on.

I'm happy that companies are getting flexible but from reading this thread it's as though companies are creeping incrementally towards generally more family friendly policies, and they are having their hand bitten off at the elbow.

With seniority comes responsibility. If you are crucial to a project and the client wants a meeting - then it is up to you who can't / won't contemplate a 9am meeting to go to your boss, or direct to the client if that's the relationship you have, and ask for it to be moved. Bearing in mind that you might be putting someone else out. And then i would expect you to have as much consideration for them as everyone else has for you.

It's not really rocket science, is it?

But people who rock in late "because overslept" or "train late" or "traffic" every flipping day? Get up earlier. Or negotiate a different start time.

Me and DH are able to juggle lots between us but we have no family help and our childcare operates between 8am and 5.30

i have sympathy with this but my family all live in a different country, DH started at 6am and i paid a SHIT load of our monthly incomings to have a childminder who did this for us. Because Germany isn't mum-working-friendly AT ALL.

Each family has to decide for themselves how they manage this, and i totally get how hard it is right now. But you know what else is hard? international trade and keeping companies afloat. So while companies should (and it seems that many do) offer some flexibility, they should also get flexibility in return.

AnnPerkins : "If this employee has an issue with fitting childcare around their work commitments they should address it by requesting a flexible working arrangement. They can't just decline meetings according to their personal schedule and expect everyone else to fit in around them."

Ha ha, you'd be surprised how many do expect that.
We had an internal team meeting, very informal, just a daily stand-up to share progress, achievements, issues. Official start time was 09:00 and the meeting was at 09:10. One team member was contracted to start at 8. Another team member asked to change her hours so that she also started at 8 (childcare reasons) - I agreed. Then she began to complain that the daily meeting interrupted her work(!), could we change the time? Er, noooo.

But I do think you need to have a chat with your team member and see how you can sort this out. It's possible that her life is already only just hanging together, and this might be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Or she might be a piss-taker. You know her, we don't.