Friend says she judges me for being in contact with my Dad

[niceandwarming]

I want to start this post off by saying I don't condone any of my Dad's views in any shape of form.

My Dad and I have an ok relationship, I am in my mid 20's but he has a lot views which are absolutely disgusting. First off he is racist, openly thinks black people have what he calls a "chip on their shoulder", I heard him once refer to a disabled person using the r word, thinks people who are going to clubs and getting spiked is their own fault as their drunk. Calls gay people "Queers".

My friend has said she judges me for staying in contact and having a relationship with him.

Would you do the same?

The only person I would judge on this is your dad. You’re not responsible for his views and it’s pretty fucking wild that anyone would expect that you might cut him off because they don’t like it.

I would be happy to lay money on your friend herself having a family member or other friend with questionable views.

It's important that you decide on what relationships you want to have and with you.

When my father passed away 5 years ago, I was the only family member in contact him. I wouldn't say we were super close but it was important to me to maintain a relationship with him, he was my Dad and I loved him.

My brother didn't really like me seeing him and would occasionally make the odd comment but I did hide that we had a relationship because it was my choice and others needed to respect that.

Now that he is gone I am glad I made my own decision to be in contact with him. I'm not saying I have no regrets in respect of our relationship, I wish we had been closer but I think I would have had more regrets had I lost touch too.

Sorry I meant I didn't hide that we had a relationship (not did)!

His love is conditional on her being straight, able bodied and not loving someone of a different ethnicity.

No it isn't. I bet she could be all three of those things, and he'd still love her. Her being that way might cause him to have different views, but more likely he would find some reason why views he applied to other people didn't apply to her.

You've constructed a false premise so that you can uphold a simplistic view that their can't be anything good about a person with some bad characteristics. (Has no-one ever told you that Hitler loved his dog?)

People just like to judge. Years ago I had a "friend" who was very judgemental about me NOT being in contact with my dad.

@lotusgirl909

People judge because thinking is hard.

Yes, this is so true. You read on here people saying they could never be a friend of a Brexit remainer or leaver, or of a Conservative or Labour supporter. It's as if people have lost the ability to listen and understand other view points because they don't have the capacity to deal with anything that challenges their own belief. They can't separate a viewpoint out from the character of a person. I think this black and white thinking is quite scary for the future.

@RandomLondoner

His love is conditional on her being straight, able bodied and not loving someone of a different ethnicity.

No it isn't. I bet she could be all three of those things, and he'd still love her. Her being that way might cause him to have different views, but more likely he would find some reason why views he applied to other people didn't apply to her.

You've constructed a false premise so that you can uphold a simplistic view that their can't be anything good about a person with some bad characteristics. (Has no-one ever told you that Hitler loved his dog?)

I didn;t know Hitler loved his dog, but it explains a lot

It's as if people have lost the ability to listen and understand other view points because they don't have the capacity to deal with anything that challenges their own belief.

I think everyone has subjects that are not up for debate even if they believe in free speech.
Slurs and racial stereotypes are not up for debate in the same way that membership of the EU might be imo and I'm not apologetic about that.

Yes, this is so true. You read on here people saying they could never be a friend of a Brexit remainer or leaver, or of a Conservative or Labour supporter. It's as if people have lost the ability to listen and understand other view points because they don't have the capacity to deal with anything that challenges their own belief. They can't separate a viewpoint out from the character of a person. I think this black and white thinking is quite scary for the future.

That REALLY annoys me. It is perfectly possible to -

(a) Have listened a lot to a particular political position
(b) Have noted that you have heard next to nothing that supports the position
(c) Genuinely believe that the position is extreme and highly dangerous
(d) Decide that one thing you can do as an individual to fight the threat is to make it clear to friends and family that you regard their position as so dangerous that you cannot remain friends with them unless they are able to convince you that they have changed their mind.

And no, I can' separate the viewpoint of voting tory with the character of a person that would take £20 a week off the most vulnerable families in the UK whilst continuing to take backhanders and give tax breaks to the richest.

^I think everyone has subjects that are not up for debate even if they believe in free speech.
Slurs and racial stereotypes are not up for debate in the same way that membership of the EU might be imo and I'm not apologetic about that.^

100%.

People do not put their bigoted beliefs in a box on the shelf at home and leave them there. It influences how they vote, it influences how they treat people, and othering the minorities in your life as “not like the other ones” is not a compliment or some sign of kindness. It’s entirely self-serving. The nazis marching through the streets in Charlottesville didn’t go to work on Monday and suddenly treat everyone with equality and respect. They’re the cops who target minorities, they’re the juries who let the murdering cops off the hook, they’re the judges that give us harsher sentences and charge our children as adults, they’re the real estate agents who keep us out of nice neighborhoods and therefore nicer schools, they’re the HR managers who say you’re not a “cultural fit”, they’re the doctors who ignore our pain and let us die in childbirth. It’s never harmless.

I have friends with parents who are questionable at best. They have not cut them off and I don’t begrudge them for it. That being said, they’re also very critical of their parent’s bigoted beliefs. If they weren’t then I wouldn’t be friends with them. I’m entirely unwilling to spend my free time putting up with racism, sexism, or other bigotry nor should I be expected to. My humanity is not up for debate like taxes and pizza preferences. All that ever does is benefit the bigots at the expense of their targets.

@LaetitiaASD

Yes, this is so true. You read on here people saying they could never be a friend of a Brexit remainer or leaver, or of a Conservative or Labour supporter. It's as if people have lost the ability to listen and understand other view points because they don't have the capacity to deal with anything that challenges their own belief. They can't separate a viewpoint out from the character of a person. I think this black and white thinking is quite scary for the future.

That REALLY annoys me. It is perfectly possible to -

(a) Have listened a lot to a particular political position
(b) Have noted that you have heard next to nothing that supports the position
(c) Genuinely believe that the position is extreme and highly dangerous
(d) Decide that one thing you can do as an individual to fight the threat is to make it clear to friends and family that you regard their position as so dangerous that you cannot remain friends with them unless they are able to convince you that they have changed their mind.

And no, I can' separate the viewpoint of voting tory with the character of a person that would take £20 a week off the most vulnerable families in the UK whilst continuing to take backhanders and give tax breaks to the richest.

^I think everyone has subjects that are not up for debate even if they believe in free speech.
Slurs and racial stereotypes are not up for debate in the same way that membership of the EU might be imo and I'm not apologetic about that.^

100%.

Just because someone votes Tory does not mean that they agree with everything the tories do or say? It may just be that someone thinks that party is a slightly better choice than the other options that we have. 50 years from now some of your views will probably be bigoted and hateful. Heck some of my current views (around gender) would be seen as bigoted to some, would be pretty ridiculous if my friends or family cut me off for it though (unless obviously I was truly hateful in every way and also went out of my way to be hateful which is a different thing)

And no, I can' separate the viewpoint of voting tory with the character of a person that would take £20 a week off the most vulnerable families in the UK whilst continuing to take backhanders and give tax breaks to the richest.

And that's the issue with generalisations. There are plenty of working class or deprived areas that rely heavily on benefits and still vote Tory.

You can't put people in a box just because of one thing. People are not two dimensional.

If his views were communistic, hard left, or racist against white people would it make a difference?

You can challenge someone's views AND have a good relationship with them, I argue with my parents about things they say all the time, but still have a great relationship with them.. in fact the fact that I can call them out on stuff is probably why we have a good relationship, but also, I'm assuming OPs dad isn't some caricature that only says racist, homophobic and misogynistic things 24/7 and has no other depth to them and never talks about other stuff

Oh definitely. But I wasn’t asking that because I expected the answer to be that the OP doesn’t challenge those views but out of curiosity. A friend of mine moans about her nan being a racist and general bigot and would never dream of challenging her about any of the views “because it’s her generation and she’s so old it wouldn’t be fair” I don’t buy that excuse. By all means let it slide if you want to but a) don’t fucking moan about her being a disgusting racist all the time then and b) being over 70 isn’t an automatic pass to be a bigot of any kind. It’s insulting to assume everyone of a certain age is like that. Ignorance is one thing but not wilful hatred.

"You can't put people in a box just because of one thing. People are not two dimensional"

Depends on the one thing.
Some 'one things' are so abhorrent that you absolutely can put those people in a box.

And tape it shut.

And lock it in the cellar.

@RandomLondoner

His love is conditional on her being straight, able bodied and not loving someone of a different ethnicity.

No it isn't. I bet she could be all three of those things, and he'd still love her. Her being that way might cause him to have different views, but more likely he would find some reason why views he applied to other people didn't apply to her.

You've constructed a false premise so that you can uphold a simplistic view that their can't be anything good about a person with some bad characteristics. (Has no-one ever told you that Hitler loved his dog?)

You might bet on that but I, the daughter of a bigot wouldn’t. My mum, like Hitler, loves her dogs but like him she can’t love the gays (or ethnic minorities etc but it’s mostly the gays and their ‘agenda’ she has the problem with). I didn’t say their can be no nice aspects about the person after all my mum donates to the RNLI but I just don’t understand how you can conclude someone is overall a ‘decent person’ who is racist, homophobic and ableist. And to continue using my mum as an example even if she was capable of deciding that I was “one of the good ones” does that mean she is now somehow a good person? At what point does her being nice to me (not that she is) cancel out the harm she causes because as someone down thread points out those views influence her behaviour. In your example his acceptance, and by extension love, would be conditional on her accepting him still bashing minorities (and by extension her) which just feels abusive to me. Also we know LGBT teens are more at risk of homelessness and I bet we could both cite plenty of families where dating “outside their race” led to an estrangement which not only doesn’t feel very loving but shows many people neither change their view or find a way to perform mental gymnastics around it.

You need better friends. You can’t replace your dad, with his awful views, but you can replace her, with her judgemental ones.

This is a sad thread.
Would I cut off a friend who was expressing such views? Absolutely.
A parent? Maybe, maybe not.
A child? I'd think I had failed. I would be devastated, but no.
These things are incredibly complex.

@RandomLondoner

His love is conditional on her being straight, able bodied and not loving someone of a different ethnicity.

No it isn't. I bet she could be all three of those things, and he'd still love her. Her being that way might cause him to have different views, but more likely he would find some reason why views he applied to other people didn't apply to her.

You've constructed a false premise so that you can uphold a simplistic view that their can't be anything good about a person with some bad characteristics. (Has no-one ever told you that Hitler loved his dog?)

Bet based on what? Plenty of parents go no contact or even disown their parents for these things.

Some racists don't have an issue with individual people they know. So they may get on fairly well with the bloke they work with who happens to be Polish, but still vote leave because they don't want Polish people here. (this is an actual, loose, real life example of someone I know). Because the person they work with is fine, not like the others, apparently.
Racists are not logical, I doubt any other bigot is either. Because the "ones" they know are not like the others, they are not "the problem"

Racists are not logical, I doubt any other bigot is either.

Racists are also people who have had their own life experiences which have shaped their views. Labelling them as bigots doesn’t help change attitudes, and risks overlooking unconscious racism in those doing the labelling.

@NoDecentHandlesLeft

I work with someone exactly the same as that.

My dad was exactly like this. I hated his views but I loved him. We had a strange relationship, I had to draw boundaries around us and drown out a lot of what he was saying. I had over the years tried to engage and argue what he said but I ended up feeling raw and distraught afterwards as he could be very nasty and hurtful towards me.

I realised I had to accept him as he was and make my choice to keep him or discard him. I chose to keep him at arm's length. When he died two years ago I was shocked at how overwhelming my grief was. Despite his horrible views he was still my dad and I loved him. Your friend has no right to dictate your attitude to your (one and only) dad.

The problem with labelling people as -ist or -phobic is that it labels all levels of dislike/hate/prejudice/misunderstanding as all as bad as the worst level of -phobic.

The person who is wary of the woman in hijab because they irrationality fear she is a terrorist is NOT as bad as the man who beats up a Pakistani in the street. The former can be helped to see the error of her ways. If the judicial system wants to the latter can be educated too.

I have had my beliefs challenged by people who disagreed with me many times. And I'm capable of understanding and listening to other's viewpoints. But when those viewpoints don't change my mind and I find them actively abhorrent, no, I wouldn't be friends with that person.