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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

645 replies

loopyapp · 30/10/2021 11:29

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

OP posts:
Luzina · 03/11/2021 23:10

This is a 23 page thread, I haven’t read it all so am probably repeating what someone else has said.

The BBC article refers to research done on social media in which 56% of 80 women said that they were being pressured or coerced to accept a trans woman as a sexual partner. The research was done by a woman who has well known views about this issue. The research reflects her views. Firstly, We all tend to exist online in an echo chamber so it’s possible (probable even?) that her reaching out on social media for responses to her survey was more likely to attract women who share her views. Secondly, 56% of 80 doesn’t reliably tell us anything.

No one should ever have to deal with coercion or pressure to have sex with someone. This bbc article is not useful or worth considering in a discussion about consent.

TatianaBis · 03/11/2021 23:20

Good to know the 80 women who took part are not worth considering.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/11/2021 23:24

Right. So let's do some more research into the prevalence of this particular rape culture then, to find out how widespread it is.

I would suggest it is more widespread than thought, as 16,000 people thought it appropriate to sign a letter condemning the BBC for reporting on sexual coercion.

DrSbaitso · 03/11/2021 23:31

@Luzina

This is a 23 page thread, I haven’t read it all so am probably repeating what someone else has said.

The BBC article refers to research done on social media in which 56% of 80 women said that they were being pressured or coerced to accept a trans woman as a sexual partner. The research was done by a woman who has well known views about this issue. The research reflects her views. Firstly, We all tend to exist online in an echo chamber so it’s possible (probable even?) that her reaching out on social media for responses to her survey was more likely to attract women who share her views. Secondly, 56% of 80 doesn’t reliably tell us anything.

No one should ever have to deal with coercion or pressure to have sex with someone. This bbc article is not useful or worth considering in a discussion about consent.

How many women have to be coerced into sex before they're worth considering?
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/11/2021 23:32

Personally, I think that if there are enough victims of a coercive social atmosphere that a social media echo chamber of dissidents can form, then that indicates that there are too many victims.

But I do tend to hold to the ideal that the only acceptable number of rapes is zero, and apparently that's controversially idealistic these days.

You can read the research for yourself here, www.gettheloutuk.com/blog/category/research/lesbians-at-ground-zero.html

Here are some extracts from it.

As a lesbian I have heard many lesbians privately discuss being targeted by transactivists for being lesbians.
Those stories were hushed in confidence, suppressed, women justifiably fearing retaliation from perpetrators.
This silencing means that there are very few public stories of lesbians on the “cotton ceiling”, a point often advanced by transactivists to dismiss lesbians’ dissent. The aim of this study was to give silenced lesbians an opportunity to speak anonymously about their experience when faced with men who identify as transwomen, while
formally gathering the missing evidence.
The survey aimed to find whether there is a form of social pressure on lesbians to accept trans ideology within the LGBT community, and what form this may take. How does this affect their ability to meet other lesbians?
Are lesbian dating sites safe for lesbians? Is this social pressure influencing lesbians’ life and their sexual life? If lesbians are pressured online, could they also be pressured offline? Are lesbians experiencing any form of sexual violence from men who call themselves lesbians? If yes what form does this sexual violence take?

(Continues)

Research tools and method

The research was initially planned to be a series of interviews conducted with women who would be preselected after taking part in the questionnaire. After careful consideration a questionnaire was deemed more suitable in order to map an under-researched issue. A questionnaire enables the researcher to ask respondents a wider variety of questions in a short space of time (Sarantokos, 2012) and gives respondents the chance to complete the questionnaire in their own time (Curtis and Curtis, 2011).
The survey comprised of 30 questions about lesbians’ experience. It had sections relating to the following subjects: respondent identity, their experiences in LGBT groups and on lesbian dating sites, their experiences interacting with men who identify as transwomen as potential sexual partners. For the purpose of the survey, I used the queer terminology “transwomen” as advised by the Ethics Committee. The Ethics Committee believed that the survey should be “objective” but did not consider that the term “transwomen” is not an objective term and is far less widely accepted than they claimed, a point noted by a respondent who complained that the term was incorrect and misleading as “transwomen” are biologically male, therefore “not a subset of women”.
The survey was sent to women-only and lesbian-only groups on social media, as well as to individual lesbians in my own networks. As such the sample does not claim to be a representative sample of the lesbian community.
However, the research was to capture the points of view and stories of many, until now, silenced lesbians.

Findings

Within a few days, 80 women had responded to the survey, far more than originally planned. This rapid engagement demonstrates a keen interest by women who are affected by such issues and the recognition that there is a lack of work and visibility in this area. Several women left private notes, thanking me for the opportunity to speak up. Lesbians were eager to share their stories. The intention was to record lesbians’ experiences from the UK (48%), however the survey was also answered by women across the world 9, highlighting that the questions raised
concerns for lesbians in different parts of the western world. All age groups were represented. Due to the imposed time constraints of the research, I had to limit the number of questions relating to demographic information and also relating to the location e.g. rural/city provenance. Future research that will attempt to understand these views in more depth and detail will take more factors into considerations.

(Continues)

The majority of respondents reported being part of lesbian, queer or LGBT groups online (11%), offline (37%) or both (48%). 72% reported being part of strictly women-only groups (excluding “transwomen”).
Women were also part of groups which are mixed – including men and women (20%),
inclusive of all gender (21%),
women-only but including self-identifying women (20%)
and welcoming of “transwomen” (26%).

Women who were in groups that were not “women-only” reported “feeling silenced”, “intimidated”, “unable to speak freely”, “uncomfortable” with the group policy and wishing the group was for women only but “dare not say it”. Several reported how “transwomen derail” and monopolise the discussion to be solely about their issues while shutting down discussion about women’s or lesbians’ issues by calling it “transphobic”. Group dynamics are described as “toxic”. Several women explain how “transwomen are behaving just like men”.

Lesbians constantly report being told their sexuality is “wrong” if they openly state they are solely attracted to women.

Women reported “threats”, “intimidations” and “abuse”, by “transwomen” and allies.
Several respondents explained they understand and respect the need for “transwomen” to meet exclusively amongst themselves but cannot understand the lack of reciprocity accorded to women and lesbians by the trans community.

50% of women reported being excluded from their LGBT group(s).

The reason for their removal was made clear: questioning any aspect of the queer doctrine results in women be-
ing labelled “transphobic”, resulting in a ban. Respondents were banned for sharing articles from feminists that their group disapproved of, or for stating biological facts about sex and anatomy such as: “just females have periods”.
Several respondents have left groups themselves due to intimidation or before being pushed out.
Women who are still in LGBT groups have not been excluded because they report “not being open with their views".

66% of respondents reported being intimidated or receiving threats in their LGBT group(s).
For questioning the trans doctrine or just stating they were lesbians, respondents reported experiences including: verbal abuse, death and rape threats, pressure to commit suicide, threats of physical or sexual violence, threats to kill family members, receiving “transwoman nudes”, threats of “doxing”, actual online “doxing” (including exposure
of their name, picture and home address), threats of exposure to employers.
While most of this intimidation happened online, many women also reported offline threats:
• Two respondents were threatened at their place of work and one lost her job.
• A woman’s employer was repeatedly contacted with attempts to have her dismissed,
• Two respondents were subjected to intimidating behaviour from “transwomen” at lesbian events,
• A seventy-year-old woman reported being “physically threatened and forced out” of a group by a physically intimidating “transwoman”.

wellbehavedwomen · 03/11/2021 23:32

@HarrietsChariot

The BBC article raised some good points but I don't think it's a black and white issue. If someone is pressured into having sex with a transwoman that's obviously wrong. But if someone pressures you into having sex you have the freedom to say no and to walk away from them. (If they persist obviously it will become sexual assault.)

What you don't have the right to decide is their attitude to your decision. If your decision is purely based on the fact they are transgender then they are free to think of you as a transphobe. In a way you are, because you've decided not to sleep with them simply because of their trans status, ie if they were born a woman you might have done.

It's the same as if my partner wants a threesome and I agree, then when the person turns up they are black and I refuse to proceed because I'd assumed it would be a white person. I have every right to refuse, but they have every right to consider me racist because I've rejected them purely based on their skin colour, and I probably would be even if I didn't think I'd done anything wrong because I had every right to say no.

Well, on the plus side, this post nicely demonstrates why that article is not hateful or fear-mongering at all. These people genuinely think lesbians who refuse to sleep with anyone male are bigots.

So thanks for that.

Helleofabore · 03/11/2021 23:39

This bbc article is not useful or worth considering in a discussion about consent.

Please tell us then, who IS pure enough to report on this so that the message is not tainted in anyway and will be considered.

Have you even read what you have written?

You have written that those 50 odd women’s stories are completely irrelevant to you and you will not countenance that they are a true depiction of what is happening.

So, you are going to say this is not an issue until someone who you consider is pure enough says it?

And you don’t see a problem with that?

How many women have to harmed before you will take notice? N+1? And you will be happy to look in any of those women’s eyes and tell them their trauma just was not compelling enough for the lobby groups and the community to start campaigning to stop this for continuing to happen.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/11/2021 23:39

Personally, I think that if there are enough victims of a coercive social atmosphere that a social media echo chamber of dissidents can form, then that indicates that there are too many victims.

But I do tend to hold to the ideal that the only acceptable number of rapes is zero, and apparently that's controversially idealistic these days.

You can read the research for yourself here, www.gettheloutuk.com/blog/category/research/lesbians-at-ground-zero.htmll^

Thank you for posting the extracts. The dynamics of the social groups being monopolised and derailed anecdotally sound very familiar to me.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/11/2021 23:45

66% of respondents reported being intimidated or receiving threats in their LGBT group(s).
For questioning the trans doctrine or just stating they were lesbians, respondents reported experiences including: verbal abuse, death and rape threats, pressure to commit suicide, threats of physical or sexual violence, threats to kill family members, receiving “transwoman nudes”, threats of “doxing”, actual online “doxing” (including exposure of their name, picture and home address), threats of exposure to employers.
While most of this intimidation happened online, many women also reported offline threats:
• Two respondents were threatened at their place of work and one lost her job.
• A woman’s employer was repeatedly contacted with attempts to have her dismissed,
• Two respondents were subjected to intimidating behaviour from “transwomen” at lesbian events,
• A seventy-year-old woman reported being “physically threatened and forced out” of a group by a physically intimidating “transwoman”.

These accounts are shocking. This is a hostile and coercive environment for lesbians.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/11/2021 23:49

If a trans activist investigated transphobia, and sent out a questionnaire that suggested similar results, but transwomen were the victims, would it be unacceptable for the BBC to mention it?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/11/2021 23:51

That's an interesting question.

CatNameChange101 · 04/11/2021 00:36

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Right. So let's do some more research into the prevalence of this particular rape culture then, to find out how widespread it is.

I would suggest it is more widespread than thought, as 16,000 people thought it appropriate to sign a letter condemning the BBC for reporting on sexual coercion.

So these voices and experiences and RAPES shouldn’t be heard? Don’t ever dare say a woman should not share their experience because it looks bad to a minority group. Don’t you dare.
HappyDays40 · 04/11/2021 04:23

I can honestly say that in my town there are not lots of trans people wandering about trying to get people to have sex with them. Language is a powerful thing. Nobody has a right to sex. A predatory person is a predatory person regardless of gender.

merrymouse · 04/11/2021 06:18

Well, on the plus side, this post nicely demonstrates why that article is not hateful or fear-mongering at all. These people genuinely think lesbians who refuse to sleep with anyone male are bigots.

The repeated suggestion that differences in skin colour can be equated with differences between males and females is also very, very informative.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/11/2021 07:41

I can honestly say that in my town there are not lots of trans people wandering about trying to get people to have sex with them. Language is a powerful thing. Nobody has a right to sex. A predatory person is a predatory person regardless of gender.

No one is saying they aren't. But you understand that sometimes predatory people have more chance to operate where there is an environment of silencing? Savile, Catholic Church, children's homes.

DrSbaitso · 04/11/2021 08:26

This is a newly discovered form of coercion for many people. It doesn't mean most transwomen are doing it; I know they aren't. But the implications of "TWAW, no debate" range further than a lot of people who have been mindlessly rabbiting the slogan realise. This is one of them, and it's a new realisation for many people. I know it shouldn't be, because it's frigging obvious, but it is, so it needs saying. If you believe TWAW then yes, you'll have to believe that whatever reasons lesbians have for rejecting them, it shouldn't be because they're not included in the class of people their sexuality covers.

Obviously this is inane, but we've reached a point where it needs saying. And as ever, the women saying no are being told it's not an issue, or if it is, it's not big enough to be worth considering.

Do these people hear themselves?

Datun · 04/11/2021 08:35

@Luzina

This is a 23 page thread, I haven’t read it all so am probably repeating what someone else has said.

The BBC article refers to research done on social media in which 56% of 80 women said that they were being pressured or coerced to accept a trans woman as a sexual partner. The research was done by a woman who has well known views about this issue. The research reflects her views. Firstly, We all tend to exist online in an echo chamber so it’s possible (probable even?) that her reaching out on social media for responses to her survey was more likely to attract women who share her views. Secondly, 56% of 80 doesn’t reliably tell us anything.

No one should ever have to deal with coercion or pressure to have sex with someone. This bbc article is not useful or worth considering in a discussion about consent.

Oh for heavens sake. Echo chamber?

An echo chamber is listening to opinions to confirm your own. Which would be all those women saying. yes, I think there is probably is some coercion gong on out there. Not yes, it's happened to me. That's personal testimony, not an opinion.

And 'share her views'?

Do you also think that anyone campaigning for disability provision shouldn't be disabled? Or those wishing to stamp out sexism shouldn't ever have been a victim of it?

Funnily enough, I also 'share the view' that lesbianism excludes all males.

This bbc article is not useful or worth considering in a discussion about consent.

An article about consent isn't useful or worth considering in a discussion about consent.

Got it.

DrSbaitso · 04/11/2021 08:38

Honestly, this is what happens when words get so deliberately and nonsensically co-opted. There are complaints about "exclusion", but words have to be exclusionary or they're totally meaningless. A dog is not a teapot, a guitar is not a clarinet.

merrymouse · 04/11/2021 08:48

The BBC article refers to research done on social media in which 56% of 80 women said that they were being pressured or coerced to accept a trans woman as a sexual partner. The research was done by a woman who has well known views about this issue. The research reflects her views. Firstly, We all tend to exist online in an echo chamber so it’s possible (probable even?) that her reaching out on social media for responses to her survey was more likely to attract women who share her views. Secondly, 56% of 80 doesn’t reliably tell us anything.

You are misunderstanding the point of the survey. The percentages are really beside the point because nobody has suggested that they can be generalised. All they suggest is that some women who answered the questionnaire had this experience. (44?, 45?).

Their views are irrelevant, unless you are suggesting that they are making things up?

The fact that something is rare does not mean that it is unimportant.

The BBC article is important and relevant if for no other reason than that Stonewall confirms that they do indeed believe that same sex attraction is equivalent to racism.

BloodinGutters · 04/11/2021 08:53

@merrymouse

The BBC article refers to research done on social media in which 56% of 80 women said that they were being pressured or coerced to accept a trans woman as a sexual partner. The research was done by a woman who has well known views about this issue. The research reflects her views. Firstly, We all tend to exist online in an echo chamber so it’s possible (probable even?) that her reaching out on social media for responses to her survey was more likely to attract women who share her views. Secondly, 56% of 80 doesn’t reliably tell us anything.

You are misunderstanding the point of the survey. The percentages are really beside the point because nobody has suggested that they can be generalised. All they suggest is that some women who answered the questionnaire had this experience. (44?, 45?).

Their views are irrelevant, unless you are suggesting that they are making things up?

The fact that something is rare does not mean that it is unimportant.

The BBC article is important and relevant if for no other reason than that Stonewall confirms that they do indeed believe that same sex attraction is equivalent to racism.

The article is important and relevant if for no other reason than it confirms to stonewall the only acceptable kind of lesbianism is heterosexuality.
Findwen · 04/11/2021 09:24

It's not just transwomen that have suffered here. I'm a bog standard hetrosexual man and have sent many letters to Sandra Bullock offering her a date whilst she was single. She claims to be heterosexual but has clearly never seen this man who is many years her junior and no career to speak of as an equal or acceptable dating partner :(

I put this down to bigotry.

Solidarity with Transwomen

lifeturnsonadime · 04/11/2021 09:57

All of these people coming on here to infer they don't believe the women in the article when members of the community they belong to frequently threaten women with 'sucking my lady cock' and worse.

And when Stonewall itself says lesbians should 'examine their prejudices' .

I know who I believe.

Datun · 04/11/2021 10:04

@lifeturnsonadime

All of these people coming on here to infer they don't believe the women in the article when members of the community they belong to frequently threaten women with 'sucking my lady cock' and worse.

And when Stonewall itself says lesbians should 'examine their prejudices' .

I know who I believe.

IKR?

I don't think most of them are genuine, but if they are how can they not hear the deafening dissonance.

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing · 04/11/2021 10:27

The think that gets me is that there don’t seem to be any trans women pressuring straight men in the same way?

GenderAtheist · 04/11/2021 10:53

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

The think that gets me is that there don’t seem to be any trans women pressuring straight men in the same way?
I know, it’s a complete mystery why that is.