Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

[loopyapp]

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

@ArcheryAnnie

So what is the point of the thread? What's the point of the article? What's the takeaway that you think I should learn?

Ijustreallywantacat what I am hoping, from threads like this, and from the BBC article, is that young lesbians will see that they are not alone, that they are not broken, that their desire is not shameful, that their boundaries are not something that others should be permitted to overcome, that they don't need to learn to "cope" with penis-in-vagina sex in order to be seen as a good, progressive person.

If all this news coverage gives just one lesbian a bit of comfort and support to be able to say no, when she's pressured for sex by a male-bodied person, then that's a win.

If all this news coverage enables just one young lesbian not to feel shame at her own same-sex desires, then that's a win.

💜💜💜

@ArcheryAnnie

So what is the point of the thread? What's the point of the article? What's the takeaway that you think I should learn?

Ijustreallywantacat what I am hoping, from threads like this, and from the BBC article, is that young lesbians will see that they are not alone, that they are not broken, that their desire is not shameful, that their boundaries are not something that others should be permitted to overcome, that they don't need to learn to "cope" with penis-in-vagina sex in order to be seen as a good, progressive person.

If all this news coverage gives just one lesbian a bit of comfort and support to be able to say no, when she's pressured for sex by a male-bodied person, then that's a win.

If all this news coverage enables just one young lesbian not to feel shame at her own same-sex desires, then that's a win.

Yes.

And this = preventing rape.

This thread has the potential to prevent rape.

That seems like a good enough point to me.

But maybe others would prefer MN to stick to CF parking threads with a diagram?

What is the point of any AIBU?

The BBC article raised some good points but I don't think it's a black and white issue. If someone is pressured into having sex with a transwoman that's obviously wrong. But if someone pressures you into having sex you have the freedom to say no and to walk away from them. (If they persist obviously it will become sexual assault.)

What you don't have the right to decide is their attitude to your decision. If your decision is purely based on the fact they are transgender then they are free to think of you as a transphobe. In a way you are, because you've decided not to sleep with them simply because of their trans status, ie if they were born a woman you might have done.

It's the same as if my partner wants a threesome and I agree, then when the person turns up they are black and I refuse to proceed because I'd assumed it would be a white person. I have every right to refuse, but they have every right to consider me racist because I've rejected them purely based on their skin colour, and I probably would be even if I didn't think I'd done anything wrong because I had every right to say no.

What you don't have the right to decide is their attitude to your decision. If your decision is purely based on the fact they are transgender then they are free to think of you as a transphobe.

Well, in the sense that anyone is free to think anything they like. But a lesbian woman rejecting a male person is doing it because that's what lesbian sexuality is. It's about being exclusively same sex attracted. Any questioning that lesbians must include males in their dating pool is fairly bog standard homophobia.

If your decision is purely based on the fact they are transgender then they are free to think of you as a transphobe. In a way you are, because you've decided not to sleep with them simply because of their trans status, ie if they were born a woman you might have done.

You have clearly learned nothing from the article or from the rest of this thread. The reason why a lesbian would refuse to sleep with a transwoman is because lesbians are same sex attracted / homosexual. A transwoman is a male, not a female.

Why are you so homophobic?

It's the same as if my partner wants a threesome and I agree, then when the person turns up they are black and I refuse to proceed because I'd assumed it would be a white person. I have every right to refuse, but they have every right to consider me racist because I've rejected them purely based on their skin colour, and I probably would be even if I didn't think I'd done anything wrong because I had every right to say no.

Are you bisexual? I'm assuming you are, and that is why you have a blind spot over this. Most people are not bisexual.

I think if the lesbian was automatically rejecting everyone who identifies as a transman there may be a more nuanced question about transphobia

but since it's transwomen that are being rejected , well saying it's transphobic is only possible if you are rejecting their right to define their sexuality... homophobic

Gender isn't sex and the right to have a sexual preference for one or other sex is a fundamental human right

@HarrietsChariot

The BBC article raised some good points but I don't think it's a black and white issue. If someone is pressured into having sex with a transwoman that's obviously wrong. But if someone pressures you into having sex you have the freedom to say no and to walk away from them. (If they persist obviously it will become sexual assault.)

What you don't have the right to decide is their attitude to your decision. If your decision is purely based on the fact they are transgender then they are free to think of you as a transphobe. In a way you are, because you've decided not to sleep with them simply because of their trans status, ie if they were born a woman you might have done.

It's the same as if my partner wants a threesome and I agree, then when the person turns up they are black and I refuse to proceed because I'd assumed it would be a white person. I have every right to refuse, but they have every right to consider me racist because I've rejected them purely based on their skin colour, and I probably would be even if I didn't think I'd done anything wrong because I had every right to say no.

Are you really attempting to equate lesbian sexual orientation with racism?

This isn't about a person not wanting to sleep with someone because they are trans. That would be a sexual preference.

This is about the erasure of sexual orientation on the basis that biological sex doesn't exist.

Funnily enough, the sexual orientation that is being targeted is the only sexual orientation that explicitly rejects men.

"It's the same as if my partner wants a threesome and I agree, then when the person turns up they are black and I refuse to proceed because I'd assumed it would be a white person."

But ... it isn't the same. At all. Even a little bit

What you don't have the right to decide is their attitude to your decision. If your decision is purely based on the fact they are transgender then they are free to think of you as a transphobe

Lesbianism is single SEX orientation. It has nothing to do with Gender.

You see this is why we can't talk about it. Once we get to the crux of the issue there is a real conflict between Gender and homosexuality.

In order for this to stop the whole premise of gender ideology and the TWAW and TW who are heterosexual males are lesbians fails.

In a way you are, because you've decided not to sleep with them simply because of their trans status, ie if they were born a woman you might have done.

Errr no. They've decided not to sleep with them because of their sex not their trans status. So no, not in any way shape or form transphobic.

Are you always this homophobic?

@HarrietsChariot

The BBC article raised some good points but I don't think it's a black and white issue. If someone is pressured into having sex with a transwoman that's obviously wrong. But if someone pressures you into having sex you have the freedom to say no and to walk away from them. (If they persist obviously it will become sexual assault.)

What you don't have the right to decide is their attitude to your decision. If your decision is purely based on the fact they are transgender then they are free to think of you as a transphobe. In a way you are, because you've decided not to sleep with them simply because of their trans status, ie if they were born a woman you might have done.

It's the same as if my partner wants a threesome and I agree, then when the person turns up they are black and I refuse to proceed because I'd assumed it would be a white person. I have every right to refuse, but they have every right to consider me racist because I've rejected them purely based on their skin colour, and I probably would be even if I didn't think I'd done anything wrong because I had every right to say no.

What if you agreed to a threesome with your partner and another woman and when the person turned up they were a man?

Would you just expect to get on with it because you had agreed in advance?

That's really really odd if so and you should.perhaps think about whether your sexual boundaries are actually so compromised for a reason.

If your decision is purely based on the fact they are transgender then they are free to think of you as a transphobe.

And I, in turn, would be free to think of them as a blithering idiot because they can't understand that it's not because they're trans, it's because they're the natal sex that doesn't attract me.

And I don't care what they think. But I do care if this moronic homophobia is being championed by the organisation that was set up to protect the rights of gay people, and becomes so acceptable, desirable even, that it causes the repression, coercion and ostracisation of people based on their sexuality.

How do you people not get this? Are you trying to be so open minded that your brains have fallen out?

@bordersmidgebites

I think if the lesbian was automatically rejecting everyone who identifies as a transman there may be a more nuanced question about transphobia

but since it's transwomen that are being rejected , well saying it's transphobic is only possible if you are rejecting their right to define their sexuality... homophobic

Gender isn't sex and the right to have a sexual preference for one or other sex is a fundamental human right

Bring a lesbian is a sexual orientation not a sexual preference.

A lesbian also not wanting to have sex with female bodies transmen is sexual preference. Same way not wanting to have sex with short women or much older women or whatever. She’s entirely entitled to her preferences also.

If your decision is purely based on the fact they are transgender then they are free to think of you as a transphobe. In a way you are, because you've decided not to sleep with them simply because of their trans status, ie if they were born a woman you might have done.

You what?

No.

I am homosexual. I do not sleep with male people. Regardless of how male people define themselves. Because I am homosexual.

Being homosexual is not like being racist. However you saying that is you being homophobic.

Essentially you're informing me I have no right to a sexuality that excludes male people from my body, because it's rude to male people. How bloody dare you?

In a way you are, because you've decided not to sleep with them simply because of their trans status, ie if they were born a woman you might have done.

This is laughable. Or would be, if it weren't so serious.

I'd sleep with Boris Johnson if he had been born Ryan Reynolds. George Clooney would sleep with me if I'd been born Amal Alamuddin. What on earth is your point?

In a way you are, because you've decided not to sleep with them simply because of their trans status

Incidentally, since you're nagging me to go out and have sex I don't want, won't enjoy, have no attraction to, but apparently have a social duty to force myself to provide so you can feel better about my gayness having been redefined into something nicer and more modern that fits you better...

who exactly will you be shagging out of a sense of duty? Or do you get to choose your sexual partners and it's only lesbians who have to lie back and think of Stonewall?

I feel

random 'I feel' there, but 'gobsmacked' might be a good add on.

'horrified' might be another.

Feels analogous with incel culture online too. (You know, guilt trip and punishment, "You'd have slept with me if I'd been a Chad, you slut.")

@Vanishun

Feels analogous with incel culture online too. (You know, guilt trip and punishment, "You'd have slept with me if I'd been a Chad, you slut.")

It's exactly the same.

I think the effectiveness of cosmetic surgery is wildly overestimated in the popular imagination.

It's not magic. Patients don't get female bodies and you can't call a woman a bigot for not finding them sexually attractive

@Artichokeleaves

In a way you are, because you've decided not to sleep with them simply because of their trans status

Incidentally, since you're nagging me to go out and have sex I don't want, won't enjoy, have no attraction to, but apparently have a social duty to force myself to provide so you can feel better about my gayness having been redefined into something nicer and more modern that fits you better...

who exactly will you be shagging out of a sense of duty? Or do you get to choose your sexual partners and it's only lesbians who have to lie back and think of Stonewall?

I feel

IME people who speak like this about sex (it's something 'earned' or 'agreed to') do so because they have no concept of enthusiastic consent themselves.

So I feel a bit sorry for people posting like this because they are possibly having lots of sex they don't really want.

My DSis is like this. Horribly abused and no.idea that healthy relationships exist or that women have any right to them. She'd have no chance against 'you're homophobic/transphobic/racist if you don't want to have sex with x person'.

Even if the surgery was incredible and you'd never guess, human sexuality isn't based solely on aesthetics. Knowing it's not a real female body, that's it's not a real vagina or real breasts (the sexual responsiveness of vaginas can't be duplicated and a reduced penis is not a clitoris) can put people off. Plenty of straight men aren't attracted to women they perceive as "fake" through lots of surgery.

So I feel a bit sorry for people posting like this because they are possibly having lots of sex they don't really want

Either that or they're used to coercing other people into sex THEY don't want.