Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

[loopyapp]

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

This is the first time in my life I've found myself frustrated by people who didn't read a headline. Normally I'm frustrated because people didn't read beyond the headline.

Oh I am frequently frustrated by people who only look at the pictures.

These people are termed CHILDREN

I’m really enjoying @Linning starting the caps trend thingy. It’s my new fav thing.

Although not as much fun as saying VAGINA VAGINA VAGINA in public.

@Helleofabore

You know. This thread is a live demonstration of how this article has played out.

So many people arguing that the article is damaging to a group of people, instead of saying, 'well, actually yes, it has happened, it cannot be denied that it is happening, let's all work together to make sure it stops. That NO body thinks that they are entitled to sex, and that all people understand that saying no is ALWAYS acceptable, accepted unconditionally and should never have to be justified.'

What part of this do people who would have voted in that 6% not understand?

What part of saying 'it has never happened to anyone I know and therefore is not a big enough issue to be addressed by the mainstream media' is NOT coercing other lesbians from disclosing their experiences?

What part of saying 'this discussion is harming trans people' when it is discussing SOME transitioned males behaviours towards women' is not part of a coercive action to silence lesbians trying to raise the alarm?

Does it matter that it is a small number of lesbians that it has actually happened to, or a larger group or a large number? The fact that it is happening, that it needs addressing is being ignored by people caught up in censoring lesbians trying to speak up.

And those censoring those lesbians wonder why they are not hearing about the extent that this is happening.

Those voting yabu probably just figured out what gc people would vote and voted the opposite.

Same way people voted bidden in because trump bad. Or how kids decide daddy is the best because mummy is the worst on a given day.

It’s the epitome of sophistication in choice making these days. No need to worry over independent thinking or waste time making an informed choice. Just figure out who you think are baddies, see what choice they make and do a 180.

toconclude
DellaPorter

It's just a load of rubbish scaremongering not grounded in reality, another attempt to turn people against trans women.

THIS. More 'trans people are secretly rapists' bigotry, as indicated by too many posts on this thread.

And yet the thread is about some transwomen and allies wanting to remove any lesbians right to choose who they have sex with.

The some in that title was very noticeable too, wasn’t it - it kind of clanged a bit, and that’s because you wouldn’t normally need to put it in, it would be taken as read that you weren’t talking about an entire demographic.

But such is the need to walk on eggshells on this topic, such is the enormity of saying anything that one single person somewhere might possibly just be able to construe as “transphobic”, such is the enormity of the crime were that to be the case, such is the horror which would ensue if a member of the sacred caste or one of their acolytes should have their feelings hurt - so much more sensitive and important than ordinary bog standard people’s feelings - that the “some” had to be conspicuously wedged in there to ward off any possible accusations of generalising, any possible misinterpretation that it was meant to be about all biologically male trans people.

Yes, perfectly put! I had exactly the same thought. When do articles ever say "some gender critical feminists"?

When do articles ever say "some gender critical feminists"?

Good question.

[quote fallenwood]@BloodinGutters I am guessing your views are quite entrenched here, but to reiterate, I was talking about personal testimony from transwomen who know many other transwomen who want to be in relationships with men. You are ignoring that. You seem completely disinterested in it. Your "research" is banned for a reason. You have no idea what sexual preferences most transwomen have and nor does your researcher, and nor do I. The information is not on google either.[/quote]
The research is banned because people reported it

Its banned because some people do not like dissenting voices

And yet the thread is aboutsometranswomen and allies wanting to remove any lesbians right to choose who they have sex with.

My question is though, why?
What is the point of the thread?

As you all keep saying, youre not transphobic, so you know that the vast, vast majority of transpeople agree that nobody should be forced to have sex with anybody, nor should they be coerced or pressured. You know that every other minority, and majority group, has a small percentage of people that would like to remove people's choice to have sex with them.

So what is the point of the thread? What's the point of the article? What's the takeaway that you think I should learn?

@Ijustreallywantacat

And yet the thread is aboutsometranswomen and allies wanting to remove any lesbians right to choose who they have sex with.

My question is though, why?
What is the point of the thread?

As you all keep saying, youre not transphobic, so you know that the vast, vast majority of transpeople agree that nobody should be forced to have sex with anybody, nor should they be coerced or pressured. You know that every other minority, and majority group, has a small percentage of people that would like to remove people's choice to have sex with them.

So what is the point of the thread? What's the point of the article? What's the takeaway that you think I should learn?

That some men who identify as women are pressuring lesbians into sex. That the trans movement has an issue with homophobia. That organisations which purport to support people who are same sex attracted are telling them that they need to check their prejudices. That this is an issue which is newsworthy.

What do you think is the point of investigative journalism?

As you all keep saying, youre not transphobic, so you know that the vast, vast majority of transpeople agree that nobody should be forced to have sex with anybody, nor should they be coerced or pressured. You know that every other minority, and majority group, has a small percentage of people that would like to remove people's choice to have sex with them.

I'm sorry but how do I know that this?

This thread is full of links to people from the trans community and their allies on twitter who are saying the exact opposite.

Why are the trans community and Stonewall not speaking up for lesbians on this issue if what you are saying is true?

It would be very easy for trans people to make their voices heard on this in support of lesbians but they don't, they mainly do the opposite.

Why should we not be allowed to state that some transwomen are bad?

Why should we not be allowed to state that sone transwomen use thier trans status to bully and intimidate lesbians ( another minority )

Why are transwomen so special that this hateful aspect of sone of them have to go unreported ?

Surely by reporting it other lesbians may be less likely to suffer this specific type of rape . Why should rape prevention take a back seat because the perpetrators are trans ?

That some men who identify as women are pressuring lesbians into sex.
That the trans movement has an issue with homophobia

I think linking these two is the problem I have.

As you said, the issue is that some trans people are pressuring people in to sex. However, it is a very small minority, trans people in general agree that the behaviour is wrong, and we can't claim that the wrongdoings of a few represent the whole can we? I can say that i see the issue with the 'check the prejudices' comment, but there was no pressure around that. It said 'may want to consider', not 'you are a bigot.'

We do know that people tip toeing around minority groups has led to bad people getting away with things , but this is different , it's not police turning a blind eye because of minority status , it's members of that minority deliberately weaponising their status

What's the point of the article? What's the takeaway that you think I should learn?

Eh? To inform surely? Raise awareness, enable discussion. You know, normal things.

Did you ask what the point of the reporting of Sarah Everard's murder was? We all know that murder is wrong - reporting of that wasn't to provide takeaways for you to learn from.

Do we know that only a small portion of the trans community are homophobic? Given what stonewall have said, it makes it appear to be the majority position

@BloodinGutters I had a quick look at research this morning and as I said, there has not been much scientific study (as opposed to comment) in the decades since your researcher but I did find a study published in NCBI by Nuttbrock/Bockting/Mason/Hwahng/Rosenblum/Macri/Becker. They interviewed 571 MTF, and just over 68 percent were transwomen who were (biologically) homosexual (ie wanting to have relations with men), therefore whilst not conclusive it certainly indicates the opposite of what you said. There were subgroups in the remaining percentage, and it is here where fetishism is found, not in the (large) majority group. Caveat to this is that I only had a short time to have a look this morning but I will let you know if I find anything else.

@Ijustreallywantacat

And yet the thread is aboutsometranswomen and allies wanting to remove any lesbians right to choose who they have sex with.

My question is though, why?
What is the point of the thread?

As you all keep saying, youre not transphobic, so you know that the vast, vast majority of transpeople agree that nobody should be forced to have sex with anybody, nor should they be coerced or pressured. You know that every other minority, and majority group, has a small percentage of people that would like to remove people's choice to have sex with them.

So what is the point of the thread? What's the point of the article? What's the takeaway that you think I should learn?

What I know is that 16,000 people have expressed their public ongoing support for an unknown number of rapists. That celebrities have contributed to an environment where it is acceptable to call rape victims bigots and liars.

My takeaway is that many people are keen to reassure rapists that they can continue to rape without fear of social censure.

Your takeaway should be that some of us out there still think rape is wrong. I know! Shocking, eh? You should have learnt that we will condemn rape and apologists for it wherever we see it, and that maybe, just maybe, there will be social consequences for rape apologists in the future.

With any studies in transwomen sexuality I would like to see it broken down by various categories

At the very least , those with and those without a penis would be good

There do seem to be categories also related to age of transistion and how recent the transition as anecdotally it seem that the nature of trans has changed over the years from what originally strongly related to gender dysmorphia to something where that aspect is no longer considered a prerequisite

@bordersmidgebites

Why should we not be allowed to state that some transwomen are bad?

Why should we not be allowed to state that sone transwomen use thier trans status to bully and intimidate lesbians ( another minority )

Why are transwomen so special that this hateful aspect of sone of them have to go unreported ?

Surely by reporting it other lesbians may be less likely to suffer this specific type of rape . Why should rape prevention take a back seat because the perpetrators are trans ?

Because it is misleading and unhelpful and usually turns into being disrespectful and intolerant as it has in many parts of this thread.

It would be more helpful to look at how and why people become abusive, whoever they are, and what can be done about that, and looking at specific individual problems women face and focusing on specific solutions for those specific problems.

@bordersmidgebites

With any studies in transwomen sexuality I would like to see it broken down by various categories

At the very least , those with and those without a penis would be good

There do seem to be categories also related to age of transistion and how recent the transition as anecdotally it seem that the nature of trans has changed over the years from what originally strongly related to gender dysmorphia to something where that aspect is no longer considered a prerequisite

Unfortunately, as every attempt to do proper research into such topics has the researcher run out of town by gangs carrying flaming torches, all we ever get is the sort of 'pick me, pick me' guff that the likes of Sally Hines produce.

@Ijustreallywantacat

*That some men who identify as women are pressuring lesbians into sex. That the trans movement has an issue with homophobia*

I think linking these two is the problem I have.

As you said, the issue is that some trans people are pressuring people in to sex. However, it is a very small minority, trans people in general agree that the behaviour is wrong, and we can't claim that the wrongdoings of a few represent the whole can we? I can say that i see the issue with the 'check the prejudices' comment, but there was no pressure around that. It said 'may want to consider', not 'you are a bigot.'

Why is an organisation which was set up to advocate for lesbian and other homosexual rights telling women they may want to consider if they are being prejudiced by excluding people with penises from their dating pool?

Lesbians are same sex attracted. No one should be telling them to consider including men in their dating pool. That is homophobic. I'm

It would be more helpful to look at how and why people become abusive, whoever they are, and what can be done about that, and looking at specific individual problems women face and focusing on specific solutions for those specific problems.

You mean, like looking at how some lesbians have been coerced by some "specific" types of males? That sort of thing?

@bordersmidgebites

With any studies in transwomen sexuality I would like to see it broken down by various categories

At the very least , those with and those without a penis would be good

There do seem to be categories also related to age of transistion and how recent the transition as anecdotally it seem that the nature of trans has changed over the years from what originally strongly related to gender dysmorphia to something where that aspect is no longer considered a prerequisite

Have a look at the research I referred to above.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes I could applaud your last comment. It's bizarre, isn't it, that we're being called bigots for objecting to rape victims being called liars and stating that lesbians have a right to bodily autonomy.

What a time to be alive.

Sorry did you just say I should care about the perpetrators more?

But at the same time that we shouldn't say that there is a particular kind of perpetrators that is trans identifying ?

Rape apologist ?

To any rape victims reading this thread , and there will be many, seeing the hateful rape apologism

Hugs and flowers to you all