Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

[loopyapp]

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Hmm, I wonder if perhaps violent males without criminal convictions (i.e. not caught yet) might want to identify their way into women's spaces on the outside. Nah...

Only men with a criminal record would ever be so sneaky...

Don’t be silly. That would never happen.

Men who aren’t already locked up in prison for being predatory couldn’t actually be predatory could they?

Everyone knows predatory criminals just magically appear in prisons in a poof of smoke with a black mask over eyes and striped prison garb.

Same way we can tell actual bad guys in real life by the same outfit choices and transwomen only wear feminine clothes so none of them could ever be bad guys could they?

*thought process of some of the twaREALw crew.

SOME does not equal ALL

before someone spits the dummy out

Blanchard's research isn't banned here. The word he uses for certain TW is, but his research is perfectly legitimate

MN is many things, but it is not an arbiter of what is and what isn't decent research. How peculiar to think otherwise.

Hmm, just stay with me here, but could the kind of predatory male who manages to not get caught also be even sneakier than the kind that gets caught and sent to prison?

The some in that title was very noticeable too, wasn’t it - it kind of clanged a bit, and that’s because you wouldn’t normally need to put it in, it would be taken as read that you weren’t talking about an entire demographic.

But such is the need to walk on eggshells on this topic, such is the enormity of saying anything that one single person somewhere might possibly just be able to construe as “transphobic”, such is the enormity of the crime were that to be the case, such is the horror which would ensue if a member of the sacred caste or one of their acolytes should have their feelings hurt - so much more sensitive and important than ordinary bog standard people’s feelings - that the “some” had to be conspicuously wedged in there to ward off any possible accusations of generalising, any possible misinterpretation that it was meant to be about all biologically male trans people.

And even after all that it still didn’t work!! Still the accusations flow.

Still the calls for the ducking chair.

Ho hum.

Nothing less than 100% capitulation and obedience will do. As ever.

Sorry that was in reply to BloodinGutters’s last post.

So…. Has anyone come along with the Stonewall statement that said along the lines, ‘any lesbian has the absolute right to define their sexual boundaries and no person ever has the right to try to lower those boundaries, ever’?

Anyone?

Are those decrying the women speaking out then agreeing with Finn MacKay that women experiencing this abuse, these rapes, should not speak out because it will be ‘weaponised’ to cause division. Basically saying any lesbian speaking out will weaken the LGBT community. Many lesbians depend on these groups. So any lesbian speaking out will cause the destruction of the groups they need.

Coercive at all??? Mmm??

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Hmm, just stay with me here, but could the kind of predatory male who manages to not get caught also be even sneakier than the kind that gets caught and sent to prison?

Whose ‘thinking’ are we demonstrating here @PurgatoryOfPotholes? Because that might influence the answer.

And do those not caught identify as sneaky or identify as nothing but purely innocent?

Finn McKay has hit a new low here, hasn’t she, Helleofabore.

Yes. Really has talking.

It was a shocking thing to read from a supposed leading feminist.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

Sorry that was in reply to BloodinGutters’s last post.

You’re completely correct. I found it very necessary to type SOME before SOME people demonstrated faux offence.

Not what you meant?

Yep articles normally don’t need to state that SOME men or SOME white people.

It would be a pita to censor ourselves like that day in day out.

SOME politicians are slimy scum suckers.
SOME teenagers have stinking attitudes.
SOME dogs sniff crotches.

Such vague wishy washy essays all teachers must be getting these days. No one will be able to argue any point without preempting is with SOME. There will soon be instructions that to avoid offending people start using the prefix SOME before any word that someone somewhere might find offensive.

SOME8 SOMEbillion SOMEpeople SOMEin SOMEthe SOMEworld

It’s already too exhausting to type but you get the point.

I am not sure branding (all/most) transwomen as a threat is something that is either accurate nor helpful

Perhaps raise that concern with the perpetrators and supporters of this behaviour (which includes those public figures telling lesbians to re think their prejudice) as opposed to telling the victims of the behaviour to hush up and not make other people feel bad.

@Artichokeleaves

I am not sure branding (all/most) transwomen as a threat is something that is either accurate nor helpful

Perhaps raise that concern with the perpetrators and supporters of this behaviour (which includes those public figures telling lesbians to re think their prejudice) as opposed to telling the victims of the behaviour to hush up and not make other people feel bad.

Or just read the word 'some' in the headline?

I didn't call anyone privileged (is that a bad word now too?)

I said that to many people, someone who is saying they are more scared of lesbian's allies than of literal rapists, would appear to be saying so from a privileged position.

It appears that way, but it's also entirely possible they're either dense, or suffering from some serious internalised misogyny. 🤷🏼‍♀️ Doesn't matter to me either way, it's just sad that any woman would side with their oppressor. Hardly rare though, is it.

And I used "rapists" as (again...) no one was talking about all transwomen - they were talking about the situation in the OP.

@BeyondShrinks

Some might suggest it is a very privileged position to be "more threatened" by allies, than by rapists.

I'll quote myself for ease of reading :)

@DellaPorter

It's just a load of rubbish scaremongering not grounded in reality, another attempt to turn people against trans women.

THIS. More 'trans people are secretly rapists' bigotry, as indicated by too many posts on this thread.

THIS. More 'trans people are secretly rapists' bigotry, as indicated by too many posts on this thread.

Your post would carry more weight if you gave the impression that you had read either the article or the thread.

This is the first time in my life I've found myself frustrated by people who didn't read a headline. Normally I'm frustrated because people didn't read beyond the headline.

You know. This thread is a live demonstration of how this article has played out.

So many people arguing that the article is damaging to a group of people, instead of saying, 'well, actually yes, it has happened, it cannot be denied that it is happening, let's all work together to make sure it stops. That NO body thinks that they are entitled to sex, and that all people understand that saying no is ALWAYS acceptable, accepted unconditionally and should never have to be justified.'

What part of this do people who would have voted in that 6% not understand?

What part of saying 'it has never happened to anyone I know and therefore is not a big enough issue to be addressed by the mainstream media' is NOT coercing other lesbians from disclosing their experiences?

What part of saying 'this discussion is harming trans people' when it is discussing SOME transitioned males behaviours towards women' is not part of a coercive action to silence lesbians trying to raise the alarm?

Does it matter that it is a small number of lesbians that it has actually happened to, or a larger group or a large number? The fact that it is happening, that it needs addressing is being ignored by people caught up in censoring lesbians trying to speak up.

And those censoring those lesbians wonder why they are not hearing about the extent that this is happening.

This 100% this

@toconclude are you openly stating that you don't believe the lesbians quoted in the article? Do you believe they are lying about their experiences of being sexually coerced?

If you do believe them, do you think it's their duty to shut up about having been raped, in case it makes their rapists look bad?

What part of saying 'this discussion is harming trans people' when it is discussing SOME transitioned males behaviours towards women' is not part of a coercive action to silence lesbians trying to raise the alarm?

And why is the harming of trans people of greater concern for some than the harming of lesbians.

The problem is that we are focusing on supporting lesbians and wanting them to feel free to say no whereas we should be supporting trans women who have had their feelings hurt and we shouldn't point out any wrongdoings by people who claim to be trans women, pointing out bad behaviour by some people is literal violence and we are nasty terms and bigots

twitter thread

Seen the movie Spotlight? About the Boston Globe exposing child abuse in the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church used the tactics Finn is advocating for. Keep it in the community. Be silent. Don't draw attention.

The dynamics of secrecy & scapegoating are strong.
1/

To point out that the dynamics are the same is not to make an equivalence between the LGTBQ community and the Catholic Church.

But it is to say the experience of the victims of being doubly victimized by their community is the same. There is an equivalence there.
2/

Any victim of sexual violence faces multiple incidents of disclosing the violence. To authorities, therapists, family members, lovers, friends.

Sometimes to the media, if the person feels strong enough, and in the hope their story may precipitate change.
3/

Disclosure always brings with it the risk of being disbelieved, silenced for bringing attention to uncomfortable realities, attacked and scapegoated.

That is what the LGTBQ community did to lesbians who shared their story with the BBC.
4/

Communities are ruthless in policing & enforcing rules of the community. The punishment for breaking community rules is exile. The public punishment is intended as a warning to the rest of us.

STFU about sexual violence or we will rain hell down on you & excommunicate you.
5/

I have few words to explain how sad I am to watch Finn become an enforcer.

I live in exile so I will never STFU.

/end

twitter.com/iseult/status/1453298027595186176?t=nGrgRy2hWqNr8onxyutukg&s=19

And meanwhile, young lesbians are watching tiktok videos of other young lesbians apologizing for saying they don’t do dick! And taking it back to their own social groups saying that only lesbians that are transphobic say they don’t have sex with people with a penis. The indoctrination that is happening in these young lesbians seems to be completely irrelevant to many who are keen to silence those speaking out or to discredit them in some way.

And for anyone who wants to deny this is happening in these groups, you can deny all you want. I see it in action with my own teen’s group. So if you wish to tell me it isn’t happening I will tell you to pull your head out of the sand. Or somewhere else.