Page 4 | Penelope jackson guilty of murder

RudestLittleMadam · 29/10/2021 18:44

@OverTheRubicon

Anyone who came on here to say that their husband was once violently abusive - keeping in mind that he had held a knife to her throat - would be told that (a) a tragic child loss is still not an excuse and (b) that men are not likely to be violent just 3 times and never again.

She may still be a nasty person. But I am horrified by the headlines in the Times and elsewhere saying that sure he'd been violently abusive but only a long time ago, and that because her daughter hadn't seen it since, it must not have happened. Surely more likely that it always happened, it was just that his son's suicide had made him stressed enough to forget to hide it.

I agree with everything you’ve said, all of it.

SausageSizzle · 29/10/2021 18:45

If someone murdered someone in cold blood, in their right mind and 'in control' as you say, would they really be making jokes about pyjamas? It's an absolutely bizarre thing to be doing.

Yes, these are the actions of someone who has very clearly lost it.

As in the Anthony Williams case, apparently.

Yet he got 5 years.

And no abuse there as a mitigating factor.

PlanDeRaccordement · 29/10/2021 18:45

@TheAntiGardener

Depressing there are women on here who don’t seem to believe that being abused can lead to the abuser lashing out and even killing. That DV victims are only victims if they behave nicely. Thankfully, the law is more progressive on this point, even if it wasn’t applicable or unconvincing in this particular case.

I have no clue what went on here, but it’s pretty well established that abused people can snap and hurt their abusers. They aren’t ‘crying abuse’ if they use that to defend themselves.

For me it’s not that. It’s the fact that more witnesses attested that David was not abusive.

One daughter claimed David had been violent 3x over 20yrs ago. But the other two children...her sister and older brother who also grew up in same household said no violence had ever happened.

SlugRose · 29/10/2021 18:45

@TheAntiGardener

I think there needs to be a loss of control too on the part of the abused person, not just the fact of the abuse. There have been cases previously that have focused on this.

Yes I think that's it.

Theluggage15 · 29/10/2021 18:47

Sounds far more likely she was the abuser in the relationship from the evidence and what the judge said. Glad her lies were shown up and feel very sorry for that poor man’s family. Perhaps the police will take another look at the death of her third husband.

letsmakethishappen · 29/10/2021 18:47

I know it’s very hard to leave abusive relationships but she was wealthy etc could have rang the police , we just don’t go around killing people

50ShadesOfCatholic · 29/10/2021 18:49

@ssd

The footage of her discussing stabbing him afterwards was awful, really chilling. If this had been a man stabbing a woman no one would question the guilty verdict.

I agree it was disturbing footage but to me that is someone trying to manage an unthinkable situation. There is nothing "normal" about it. You can sense the officers willing her to stay silent, to stop her incriminating herself.

Hearing her speak reminded me so much of a woman I once interviewed.
She'd been subject to the most unthinkable child abuse, utterly chilling. She had a strange, detached way of talking about terrible events with an almost jokey demeanour.

I do think that severely traumatised people can appear almost cold and unfeeling, they've developed coping strategies that do not align with outsiders' notions of how they should behave. And I think TV has a big part to play in that hardly any shows portray victims realistically.

A tragedy all round, not least because this couple clearly had many years of misery. What a waste of lives.

DobbyTheHouseElk · 29/10/2021 18:51

This case is semi local to me. I don’t know the people involved.

I honestly think she was a woman who had had enough of his coercion and abuse.

I’ve read reports where he was goading her into stabbing him.

Terrible all round. She said whatever prison life was like it would be peaceful compared to her life up to that point.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 29/10/2021 18:53

This thread wouldn't be here if the otherway round

Well, it might be, but only to (rightly) bemoan abusive men

It seems to be turning into one of those anyway - they always do - but while most of us accept male abuse is dreadful and far too common, all some of us are saying is that it doesn't seem to apply here

TheAntiGardener · 29/10/2021 18:56

Yeah, I agree with you Plan. Based on what I’ve read, the picture on any abuse was pretty mixed at best and wouldn’t have allowed the jury to decide otherwise. I certainly didn’t read the reports and think ‘how awful, what a travesty of justice’. I’m more bothered about some of the comments on here that would suggest a true dv victim wouldn’t have resorted to murder. That just isn’t true. If she had been able to show that she had been provoked after years of abuse, then I believe leniency would have been appropriate.

x2boys · 29/10/2021 18:57

Man gets murdered by his wife and even with footage showing she intended to kill him ,somehow it's the man's fault ,because obviously he must be the abusive one typical Mumsnet 🙄

Kimonolady · 29/10/2021 18:57

@SausageSizzle

This man was given 5 years for killing his wife in remarkably similar circumstances:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/18/anthony-williams-killed-wife-act-of-great-violence-jailed-for-five-years

And he wasn't a victim of abuse.

This wasn’t very similar at all though?

Firstly, the defendant was convicted of manslaughter, not murder, unlike here. The sentencing starting point is therefore 7 years, not 15 years as for murder.

Secondly, the defendant pleaded guilty at the first instance to manslaughter, which is what he was ultimately convicted of. Therefore the defendant is entitled to one third off their sentence (that is the law, it is not at the discretion of the judge.).

Thirdly, it was accepted by the prosecution that the defendant had something ‘severely wrong with his mental functioning due to an underlying and substantial impairment of his mental functioning’ that led to a loss of self control. That didn’t happen here.

There are other factors that are also very different - in that case, the defendant immediately expressed remorse, whereas in the Penny Jackson case the Judge said that he did not think she had ever expressed genuine remorse.

But ultimately we’re comparing apples and oranges.

Don’t get me wrong, I think that his sentence was too low, and I do wonder if it will be appealed and increased.

But I don’t see what bearing that case has at all on this one.

Pixxie7 · 29/10/2021 18:59

x2boys@ not in this case no but each has to be on merit. A couple of years ago a local gap who was driving a sports car and knocked over and killed an elderly lady was let off any jail time based on the fact that he said he didn’t know he had diabetes something well documented as having a higher incidence in the Asian community which being a go he would have known.

ssd · 29/10/2021 19:01

@x2boys

Man gets murdered by his wife and even with footage showing she intended to kill him ,somehow it's the man's fault ,because obviously he must be the abusive one typical Mumsnet 🙄

Absolutely. And all the calls about abuse...well none of us sat on that jury and heard the evidence so saying what we think happened is a waste of time

x2boys · 29/10/2021 19:02

@Pixxie7

x2boys@ not in this case no but each has to be on merit. A couple of years ago a local gap who was driving a sports car and knocked over and killed an elderly lady was let off any jail time based on the fact that he said he didn’t know he had diabetes something well documented as having a higher incidence in the Asian community which being a go he would have known.

Dangerous driving leading to a someone being killed ,is not cold blooded murder not even slightly comparable.

x2boys · 29/10/2021 19:03

Yep totally @ssd .

prh47bridge · 29/10/2021 19:05

@Thomasina79

I’ve been following this news item with interest. She is the woman who stabbed her violent and coercive and bullying husband to death after 20 years of torment. She denied murder, but admitted manslaughter.

Am I being unreasonable in thinking the jury should have not found her guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter. Murder carries a life sentence in prison and I cannot see that that there is anything to gain by locking her away.

She stabbed her husband, yes. However, whilst she alleged he was violent, there was limited evidence to support this, and his estranged daughter claimed that she was the abuser. The fact that she administered the fatal blow when he was on the phone to the emergency services seeking help after she had already stabbed him twice won't have helped her. Similarly, her comment when charged with attempted murder, "hopefully it's not attempted", won't have helped her either.

The judge commented that she had shown no remorse and that he had no doubt her husband was nothing like she had claimed. She clearly showed no remorse. None of us can be sure what her husband was really like.

The jury heard all the evidence rather than just the snippets reported in the press so will have been in a far better position than us to determine whether she should be convicted of murder or manslaughter.

I think she'll have good grounds for an appeal.

I don't agree. She can't appeal on the basis that the jury got it wrong. She can only appeal if the trial was flawed legally (e.g. the judge misdirected the jury as to the law) or there is new evidence.

For those citing the Anthony Williams case, the difference is that he had significant evidence to support diminished responsibility. Jackson was arguing loss of control but was unable to produce much in the way of evidence to support that. I'm not saying the juries got either case right but there was a clear difference in the amount of evidential support for the defence's case.

TheAntiGardener · 29/10/2021 19:05

@x2boys - that’s why I’m saying I don’t know about this case. We can only hope justice was done and I’m sure the jury made the right decision based on what they heard. My comment was directed at the posters worrying more generally about women ‘crying’ dv to get away with violence and saying that victims don’t turn violent. The latter isn’t true, and this case proves the former isn’t a problem because her word was not accepted. Can’t prove you snapped as a result of abuse? No defence.

ssd · 29/10/2021 19:06

The footage of her after stabbing him is fucking awful. She should be utterly condemned.

IAAP · 29/10/2021 19:06

@Thomasina79

I’ve been following this news item with interest. She is the woman who stabbed her violent and coercive and bullying husband to death after 20 years of torment. She denied murder, but admitted manslaughter.

Am I being unreasonable in thinking the jury should have not found her guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter. Murder carries a life sentence in prison and I cannot see that that there is anything to gain by locking her away.

I think you need to be very very very careful with comments like this. The judge said that her attempts to paint him as a monster had not been proven in court - he can’t defend himself - it’s all her word. In fact the court goes on the state the opposite that she bullied him. Be careful. When I initially saw it I thought the same as I have been a victim of DV but their are allegations now floating around that she in fact may have coerced her 3 rd husband to Jill himself. I’m not saying any of this is true. But let’s go by the sentence here and what the judge says

Yogawankonobi · 29/10/2021 19:07

She was pleased when they arrested her for murder because it meant she had succeeded.

She murdered him.

BiLuminous · 29/10/2021 19:07

The state of mind she was in in the video is familiar to me. I didn't kill anyone but I was intending to kill myself. It is a 'my brain completely cannot cope with one second of this anymore so nothing matters' kind of mindset. It's completely crazy now when I look back as I can't associate myself with that mindset now.

However, it doesn't change the fact she murdered him with intent and so she needs to pay the price.

Mayorquimby2 · 29/10/2021 19:09

I hope she rots.

BiLuminous · 29/10/2021 19:10

Just to add, after the case of Sally Challen this decision of murder over manslaughter will not have been taken lightly. Cases such as Sally Challen's can change the course of decisions over future conviction, and in this case they have proceeded with murder. It doesn't mean they can't appeal like in Sally's case but if they've little evidence it will be difficult.

tempchecked · 29/10/2021 19:12

Does anyone remember the case of Paul Jenner?

His partner Sherry Naidoo abused him and spent 6 months in jail. Immediately upon her release she attacked him again and he died some days later.

Naidoo was convicted of ABH but not of murder or manslaughter. Always puzzled me that one, but as others have said I am merely going by what I have read about it and the C4 account on "24 hours in police custody" Very sad case, and it is rare to see domestic abuse from the perspective of a male being abused by a female partner too I think.