to blame Tony Blair for the lack of skilled workforce?

[dunkaccino]

In the 1980's only 15% of school leavers went into higher education leaving a good lot of people to become tradesmen/HGV drivers/butchers etc. Tony Blair decided in 1999 that 50% going to University was a great aim, which was finally achieved in 2019.

Now we have a lack of everyone useful - electricians, carpenters, fitters, engineers, butchers, drivers - coupled with a multitude of unskilled mickey mouse degree graduates who are of no practical use to anyone.

Covid & brexit have undeniably both played a part, but AIBU to think that Blairs idea was basically a bit shit and has left us lacking in the skilled workforce needed to run the country?

We live in a very snobbish society and parents are hellbent on their kids going to university but many just end up in dead end office jobs.

That's not what the data shows. That's a myth.

We lived in a society where access to HE was directly linked to your social class. It was an elite system.
I don't think we really want to return to that system do we?

Shittown university...... nice 🙄

Shittown university...... nice 🙄

...showing that there is still a lot of snobbery about.

The thing is, these 'shittown' universities are the ones that drive social mobility. They're also the one that are most likely to excel in vocation subjects.

They play a very important role in the sector.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

But l WANT to go to university to study thenl do t want to do it online.

Ok but don’t expect taxpayers to subsidize what is essentially your hobby

Yeah, but I’m not ever going to do it because l can’t afford it. So why would l be expecting tax subsidies ffs?😂

Well l went to Shittown university. I had a well paid job related to my area of study.

In fact all my family and friends went to ‘shittown’ but weirdly they’ve all got jobs😲well paid professional jobs🤷🏼‍♀️

People don't half talk some shite. Some people are both academic and manual.
Our family is involved in the construction industry (Mechanical-plumbing)
Dad has a masters-started hands-on at 16-both practical and academic.
I have first-class degrees PPE and Business Management (Economics).
The business is run to earn money, I can if I wish to, dissect Kant but it won't pay for my family, nor hobbies.
The problem is, not the lack of people, it's people who have a self-enforced limit on how much a trade should earn.
A construction company setup is far greater than a lifetime loan deducted from a salary. If we want to attract people into a life working manually then we're going to have to pay more. So what if they earn more than you.

So

What social mobility?

The inequality divide is widening.

People today are doing the same sort of jobs now that they would have done 30 or 40 years ago. The only difference is they now have huge debt (as does the taxpayer).

In fact things are worse now for many. The public health housing emergency is affecting more and more people including graduates. And wages have gone down whilst working conditions have got worse.

Sorting the public health housing emergency would do a lot more for social mobility than a degree.

Throw in better funded social services, mental and physical health care, infrastructure, and access to adult education evening, part-time, and weekends, and we're getting there. We could pay for these essential quality of life services with the money currently used to help students into decades of debt...

YANBU.

But then i blame Tony Blair for an awful lot of things that explain the state we are in today.

DP's cousin left school at 16. Got taken on as an apprentice. Trained on the job. Went on to flourish in the company, worked his way up to the top. He also has an MSc. Took it whilst working (was part-funded by the employer). He's looking forward to an early retirement in his 50s, which he can afford to do.

@Tealightsandd

What social mobility?

The inequality divide is widening.

People today are doing the same sort of jobs now that they would have done 30 or 40 years ago. The only difference is they now have huge debt (as does the taxpayer).

In fact things are worse now for many. The public health housing emergency is affecting more and more people including graduates. And wages have gone down whilst working conditions have got worse.

Sorting the public health housing emergency would do a lot more for social mobility than a degree.

Throw in better funded social services, mental and physical health care, infrastructure, and access to adult education evening, part-time, and weekends, and we're getting there. We could pay for these essential quality of life services with the money currently used to help students into decades of debt...

If we're to go back to a system where only 6% of the population go to university do you think that will help social mobility? Because guess which 6% of the population would end up accessing HE? Definitely not those from disadvantaged backgrounds.

HE should be a viable option for those who want to access it.
We need better funded careers advice and guidance for all ages and we need to ensure that vocational options are treated as just as valuable as the academic route.

@SpinsForGin, they are what used to be technical colleges.

There was a thread recently slagging off the Uni of Somethingshire, and it's a decent uni. It was Sometown Poly.

When I did A-levels, the ones who got good grades might go into a vocation e.g. nursing, or to uni. Those with slightly less good grades went to Poly. The ones who got poor A-levels went to the local tech, or a FE college.

There were plenty of bright kids who had left at 16 and they went to do things like work in a bank, work in an office, vocational course at the local tech, apprenticeship etc.

Now a large number of school-leavers go to uni, and many get a good class of degree. It is likely that a degree from a well-known university will be looked on more favourably compared to one from an institution you've never heard of.

[quote MerryChristmasToYou]@SpinsForGin, they are what used to be technical colleges.

There was a thread recently slagging off the Uni of Somethingshire, and it's a decent uni. It was Sometown Poly.

When I did A-levels, the ones who got good grades might go into a vocation e.g. nursing, or to uni. Those with slightly less good grades went to Poly. The ones who got poor A-levels went to the local tech, or a FE college.

There were plenty of bright kids who had left at 16 and they went to do things like work in a bank, work in an office, vocational course at the local tech, apprenticeship etc.

Now a large number of school-leavers go to uni, and many get a good class of degree. It is likely that a degree from a well-known university will be looked on more favourably compared to one from an institution you've never heard of.[/quote]
I know what type of university you are talking about. I work at one!!
The HE system has changed significantly since you left school.

I took objection to the term shittown as its bloody insulting. I might work at what you class as an inferior university but as we happen to be an international centre of excellence for my subject i'm not going to worry too much.

I hate all this snobbishness. Most people end up with pretty normal jobs regardless of which university they went to, if at all.

DD is bright enough to do A levels, but has chosen to do an extended BTEC instead as it directly relates to an area she wants to work in. I have had some hilariously snobby comments about it.

Burnedtoast absolutely. I’d hate to be a child of a STEM obsessed red brick university parent.

‘No you can’t do a degree in Politics. It’s not worthwhile’

It's profoundly depressing that there appears to be more focus and concern on trying to get everyone into university than there is for ensuring access to affordable secure housing.

Higher Education is a nice want. Decent affordable housing is an essential need. The former is more accessible than the latter. Everyone does not need to go to university. They do all need good housing. We need to rethink our priorities.

If only 6% (or whatever figure) went to university, so what? People need access to good job and training opportunities (blue or white collar, doesn't matter which) with decent pay and working conditions, good public services and infrastructure, and - crucially - affordable secure housing. They don't need HE to have these things.

Blair is one of many in power who while having done some things beneficial also had a knock on effect that caused many issues in education and retraining (and housing and many other areas). There are so many things that could be changed, but part of the barrier to that is the rose-tinted glasses I'm seeing.

As already said, things like apprenticeships weren't entirely that kind to people well before Blair was in power and there are many issues now with getting apprenticeships of all levels up to degree apprenticeships working well in a broad range of subjects many are discussing as 'don't need degrees'. Going away to university has a lot of support in many ways that isn't there for vocational courses - it's largely what you have in your area. Not everywhere has them and those looking at options are going to look at what's available.

I've recently been working with a new school that is building a career programme from scratch with the goal of 'raising aspirations'. This school is part of a multi-county initiative, and the "best" is utterly disheartening - just having a career specialist is rare, those having their own cupboard size office to run 1:1 career guidance is rarer still, and as more resources move solely online, we're hitting barriers in engagement (paperless is an admirable environmental goal, but is the bane of trying to get engagement compared to being able to hand something over). That having a stable, consistent career programme is viewed as a goal/benchmark even for well established schools and the most used career programmes still use Myers-Briggs as a way to measure how much someone will like a job shows how much this is a neglected area.

Maybe it's because I'm in an area called mickey mouse, hobby, better to be learned online (as much as I complain about the problems academia, the internet handles the social sciences even worse), but I think the problem being viewed as 'too many media studies degrees' is over simplistic. Higher education in general like much of the rest of society has socially shifted into something to consume, an ~experience~ to have. This conflicts with the other social ideal that degrees - particularly subsidized by taxpayers - should be value for money and lead to high paying careers. Things like the cap in training or the issues in making vocational courses or the many barriers face in trying to retrain or shite work conditions in essential fields or any other systemic problem into 'kids just need go into trades'. As much as I want better vocational training, it's a one of many parts involved in the issues we're facing - part of which isn't helped by using what someone in their 70s did decades ago against all odds when most others didn't that has very little meaning on how we improve the labour market today - much of which is skilled - much as a lot of work denegrated as 'unskilled' often is - it's just not the skills that some value.

Obviously, because enjoyment of life is pretty much essential for mental and physical health, (and a cohesive less divided society) we should provide opportunities for people to broaden the mind and/or pursue an interest or hobby. Well funded part-time/weekend/evening adult education are to be valued in an advanced and civilised society. Good public services and facilities are always important including recreational - whether parks, playgrounds, or FE courses.

But that is separate from training and job opportunities. Most of which don't really need a degree.

It's profoundly depressing that there appears to be more focus and concern on trying to get everyone into university than there is for ensuring access to affordable secure housing.

There isn't a push to get everyone to go to university. 50% of school leavers go.... that's clearly not everyone

Higher Education is a nice want. Decent affordable housing is an essential need. The former is more accessible than the latter. Everyone does not need to go to university. They do all need good housing. We need to rethink our priorities.

More educated societies have lower crime, better mental and physical health, have fewest people accessing benefits. How can that be a bad thing?

If only 6% (or whatever figure) went to university, so what?
So are you happy with only the very rich and elite having access to university? I'm not.

People need access to good job and training opportunities (blue or white collar, doesn't matter which) with decent pay and working conditions, good public services and infrastructure, and - crucially - affordable secure housing. They don't need HE to have these things.

I agree. Nobody has said HE is the ONLY way, it's isn't and shouldn't be promoted as such.

The point is not whether people who get degrees get good jobs. The point is whether the govt should subsidize a whole bunch of degrees which aren’t needed (as people could do them straight from school).

As they progress in their career they could be needed - so they could do part-time work-study. But in an area that they know will be useful.

Right now many do a degree then work a bit and realise that they want to work in a different field, so do a 2nd degree or masters. I mean, fine if you want to do that, but the govt should not subsidise these things in preference to things where there is a skills shortage.

I suspect that there has been qualification inflation. Employers want to filter out ‘the best’ and they use uni as a filtering point even if the actual job doesn’t require degree level skills.

Of course we need to actually provide decent training and apprenticeship opportunities. That some were/are crap doesn't mean they shouldn't be available. They just need be done properly.

Many of the supposed graduate jobs of today are no more skilled than they were 30 years ago - when the same roles were advertised to 16 or 18 year old school leavers.

@Tealightsandd

What social mobility?

The inequality divide is widening.

People today are doing the same sort of jobs now that they would have done 30 or 40 years ago. The only difference is they now have huge debt (as does the taxpayer).

In fact things are worse now for many. The public health housing emergency is affecting more and more people including graduates. And wages have gone down whilst working conditions have got worse.

Sorting the public health housing emergency would do a lot more for social mobility than a degree.

Throw in better funded social services, mental and physical health care, infrastructure, and access to adult education evening, part-time, and weekends, and we're getting there. We could pay for these essential quality of life services with the money currently used to help students into decades of debt...

Good point

So are you happy with only the very rich and elite having access to university? I'm not.

Only the rich and elite have private yachts. We're never going to have a completely equal society. But if would be good if it was fairer - if everyone had access to the most important needs. Starting with housing.