to blame Tony Blair for the lack of skilled workforce?

[dunkaccino]

In the 1980's only 15% of school leavers went into higher education leaving a good lot of people to become tradesmen/HGV drivers/butchers etc. Tony Blair decided in 1999 that 50% going to University was a great aim, which was finally achieved in 2019.

Now we have a lack of everyone useful - electricians, carpenters, fitters, engineers, butchers, drivers - coupled with a multitude of unskilled mickey mouse degree graduates who are of no practical use to anyone.

Covid & brexit have undeniably both played a part, but AIBU to think that Blairs idea was basically a bit shit and has left us lacking in the skilled workforce needed to run the country?

I worked in HE and the efforts that were made to nurse people through obtaining their degree or foundation degree was huge. It's money orientated. The more students you can enrol, the more money you get, the more lecturers you can employ. If students leave mid course, the govt remove the funding for that student and you can't enrol another student. If you lose a few students, you're looking at running the course at a loss so it will be cancelled for the following year. No hours means laying off lecturers. So there's huge pressure in getting students to stay and achieve. Some students come out with foundation degrees, even maybe degrees, being unable to construct complex sentences even. And all this is because the more quals people get, the more quals employers demand. So then people need to get higher quals. Jobs that once were carried out quite proficiently by a basic education and on job training, now need degrees. The whole system needs overhauling. Remember Tony Blaur didn't introduce this aim to create a higher skilled workforce. It was done to get youth unemployment figures down.

I have to say that this is a depressing thread - a lot of snobbery and a lot of posters who seem to know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Few seem to grasp that there is a difference between education and training. Training is teaching people how to do something specific that is useful to your circumstances. Education is meant to be enlightening people and developing them. Both are important but they are very different especially economically. Whilst it is easy enough to put an economic value on training, it is much harder to do that for education in its purest sense. When Blair was looking to southern Asia and talking about a more educated society, when posters here argue that only STEM subjects should be taught, they are actually talking about training and not education. Some degrees are basically training (eg medicine) others are largely education eg Philosophy. Some are a combination of both. All are valuable as is the training others receive via a non-academic route. Some training is more useful than others eg in my History degree I received specific training in how to read manuscripts and inscriptions - not very useful in the outside world. However I also learnt how to digest vast amounts of text and information at speed and then produce a document summarising it, drawing out the main arguments, balancing them and making a case - at university it was called an essay, at work it was called a report but it was basically the same skill set. My classical languages taught me how to approach a sentance with grammatical rigour - very useful when ploughing through the tax legislation. My STEM educated colleague struggled with all of that but she was really good at crunching numbers and pulling spreadsheets out of thin air. Fortunately for us, the big accountancy firms thought both our degrees were useful, and actually her knowledge of chemical reactions was probably no more useful to our employer than my knowledge of ancient Rome.

@Tealightsandd

So are you happy with only the very rich and elite having access to university? I'm not.

Only the rich and elite have private yachts. We're never going to have a completely equal society. But if would be good if it was fairer - if everyone had access to the most important needs. Starting with housing.

So we're comparing higher education to yachts now?

But that is separate from training and job opportunities. Most of which don't really need a degree.

Whether they do or don't depends on employers. On the job training is notoriously cut to the bone in many sectors while also complaining colleges and unis aren't doing enough. As previously mentioned, there have always been employers who like young people/apprentices because they're cheap and others who prefer not to do any training which has now mostly been leaned on further and higher education. More apprenticeships doesn't automatically solve this issue.

Many of the supposed graduate jobs of today are no more skilled than they were 30 years ago - when the same roles were advertised to 16 or 18 year old school leavers.

And those same jobs were often mocked as "unskilled" as part of keeping wages down.

Now we've the same, but the blame is on 'too many mickey mouse degrees' instead. Same tune, different lyrics.

But if would be good if it was fairer - if everyone had access to the most important needs. Starting with housing.

But the OP was asking if Blair is responsible for the lack of tradespeople/HGV drivers/butchers etc. While the cost of housing plays a role because university becomes one of the most well sign posted ways for people to leave home younger and leaves those seeking vocational training often limited to what is available in their own area, discussing housing doesn't answer whether the goal to get 50% of kids to uni caused a skill shortage in some areas. It's a piece, but not the only one.

The fact you're comparing yachts - a flashy consumable - to education is another part of the problem. Higher education has been turned into a consumable as have many areas of society - including housing. Those who manage any housing project will need trained - the question comes down to by who? That's an answer that keeps shifting around and as others mentioned, the funding models at colleges and universities for vocational or academic courses is creating far more of a mess than any student picking to study media.

Ok but don’t expect taxpayers to subsidize what is essentially your hobby

The tax payer seems to be perfectly happy to subsidize Boris' hobby of pretending to be in charge of the government.

@madisonbridges

I worked in HE and the efforts that were made to nurse people through obtaining their degree or foundation degree was huge. It's money orientated. The more students you can enrol, the more money you get, the more lecturers you can employ. If students leave mid course, the govt remove the funding for that student and you can't enrol another student. If you lose a few students, you're looking at running the course at a loss so it will be cancelled for the following year. No hours means laying off lecturers. So there's huge pressure in getting students to stay and achieve. Some students come out with foundation degrees, even maybe degrees, being unable to construct complex sentences even. And all this is because the more quals people get, the more quals employers demand. So then people need to get higher quals. Jobs that once were carried out quite proficiently by a basic education and on job training, now need degrees. The whole system needs overhauling. Remember Tony Blaur didn't introduce this aim to create a higher skilled workforce. It was done to get youth unemployment figures down.

Totally agree and I understand what you mean about the standards and students leaving and funding cut

Tradespeople don't want to take on apprentices because they get nothing out of it. It used to be that if you took on the bother of training an apprentice up, you would hope to keep him on working for you and expand your business. But if a tradesman's turnover goes above £85,000 per year, they have to start charging VAT to their customers, meaning their quotes increase by 25%, meaning they are no longer competitive. It's been that way for ages now, I think from before Blair was elected.

job-prices.co.uk/vat/

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Burnedtoast absolutely. I’d hate to be a child of a STEM obsessed red brick university parent.

‘No you can’t do a degree in Politics. It’s not worthwhile’

It’s not though 😂

@jgw1

Ok but don’t expect taxpayers to subsidize what is essentially your hobby

The tax payer seems to be perfectly happy to subsidize Boris' hobby of pretending to be in charge of the government.

Umm … what?

If we could cut his funding I’d be all for that too 😏

People can go to uni and then learn a trade if that's where the money is. It's not one or the other.

Blair was right to stress 'education, education, education' but unfortunately that morphed into 'university, university, university'

my History degree I received specific training in how to read manuscripts and inscriptions - not very useful in the outside world. However I also learnt how to digest vast amounts of text and information at speed and then produce a document summarising it, drawing out the main arguments, balancing them and making a case - at university it was called an essay, at work it was called a report but it was basically the same skill set. My classical languages taught me how to approach a sentance with grammatical rigour - very useful when ploughing through the tax legislation

Pretty sure you would have already been showing the aptitude for this in secondary, I don’t see how you couldn’t have built upon this in the workplace, perhaps taking individual coursework as needed.

For instance, I was always shocked that older journalists I met never had degrees—it wasn’t seen necessary then I guess—but they still had tremendous writing and research skills regardless.

Used up - looking at the formulaic way DD is expected to write an A level history essay I very much doubt that the skills needed to write a report are taught at school. Also, the three years I spent learning to read by myself, form my own opinions and conclusions and then argue the toss with my tutor were not structured in a way that could really be taught in school in a class where the ability was quite mixed. There is also no way that I could have been trained to do this in the professional environment in which I worked. When you have to charge your time to clients in 6 minute blocks there really is no time to teach someone how to read and process at speed and write properly - you need arts graduates who have already learnt that skill.

Used up - looking at the formulaic way DD is expected to write an A level history essay I very much doubt that the skills needed to write a report are taught at school

25 years a secondary teacher and l totally agree. They can’t absorb vast amounts of knowledge like degree level work. That ability comes with repeated practice.

They don’t have the spohistication or understanding at 17 or 18.

The lack of skills in industry isn't because everyone decided to spend 3 years studying a BA in Navel gazing studies, it's because of the lack of funding in apprenticeships and general post GCSE support

This.

The number of children leaving school without five GCSEs is truly shocking. That has nothing to do with people choosing to go to university.

@SpinsForGin, @antsinyourpanta, I just used Shittown as a made up name. I could have used Unremarkabletown Perfectlyoktown.

I'm sure your college is wonderful and a centre of excellence to you, but anyone disagreeing with you is 'ridiculous'.

@londonmummy1966

Used up - looking at the formulaic way DD is expected to write an A level history essay I very much doubt that the skills needed to write a report are taught at school. Also, the three years I spent learning to read by myself, form my own opinions and conclusions and then argue the toss with my tutor were not structured in a way that could really be taught in school in a class where the ability was quite mixed. There is also no way that I could have been trained to do this in the professional environment in which I worked. When you have to charge your time to clients in 6 minute blocks there really is no time to teach someone how to read and process at speed and write properly - you need arts graduates who have already learnt that skill.

Honestly we have to train graduates out of writing like they are drafting an academic essay.

That said, I don’t see why this sort of training has to necessarily happen at uni, it could be in the office as you gain experience or with additional coursework completed on your own time. And we need to push companies to start hiring based on portfolios and/or experience instead of summarily requiring degrees as a box ticking exercise.

[quote MerryChristmasToYou]**@SpinsForGin, @antsinyourpanta, I just used Shittown as a made up name. I could have used Unremarkabletown Perfectlyoktown.

I'm sure your college is wonderful and a centre of excellence to you, but anyone disagreeing with you is 'ridiculous'.[/quote]
People who disagree with me aren't ridiculous. I enjoy having a debate and hearing other perspectives.

I found the term 'shittown' ridiculous and insulting. It was clear what point you were making and it was unnecessary.

I'm sure your college is wonderful and a centre of excellence to you,

My university is a recognised centre of excellence for my particular subject. I didn't just decide to call it that...... it's the result of years and years of work and research by people who are leaders in the field. It is possible for non RG and red brick universities to gain this status, which is the point me and other posters have been making.

Referring to a whole group of universities as 'shittown' just feeds into the snobbish attitudes which are rife on MN.

@IveGotASongThatllGetOnYNerves

People can go to uni and then learn a trade if that's where the money is. It's not one or the other.

They won’t get a place at the college n a trades course nor an apprenticeship because they’re too old and don’t qualify for funded training places.

They won’t get a place at the college n a trades course nor an apprenticeship because they’re too old and don’t qualify for funded training places.

The apprenticeship grant for employers is for 16-24 year olds but there is no age limit on apprenticeships and no age limit on the apprenticeships levy which is used to fund most apprenticeships now.

@SpinsForGin, I've already explained that I just said 'shittown' as a made up name for a town.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about working in a former tech.

If we're to go back to a system where only 6% of the population go to university do you think that will help social mobility? Because guess which 6% of the population would end up accessing HE? Definitely not those from disadvantaged backgrounds

My DF is an immigrant whose schooling stopped at 14. DM was a SAHM who was able to re-sew cloths so that they could be passed down to my 2 DBs.

Thanks to the old system we all went to Uni and got degrees (the first on both sides of the family). With one DB getting a PhD (he's American now).

Just for balance.

[quote MerryChristmasToYou]@SpinsForGin, I've already explained that I just said 'shittown' as a made up name for a town.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about working in a former tech.[/quote]
No. I'm incredibly proud of the university I work for. I've worked for other universities and actively chose to come and work at this one because it has an excellent reputation. In fact, I was head of student recruitment here before moving into academia so my job was to tell the world how wonderful the university is!

It would be easier to believe you chose that name at random if all your posts about these types of universities wasn't heavily inferring their inferiority.

I do find it a shame that these attitudes still exist especially as it is nearly 30 years since polytechnics were granted university status. A lot can happen in 30 years and if people took the time to look they'd find some examples of academic excellence alongside some strong, well respected vocational courses.

@DGRossetti

If we're to go back to a system where only 6% of the population go to university do you think that will help social mobility? Because guess which 6% of the population would end up accessing HE? Definitely not those from disadvantaged backgrounds

My DF is an immigrant whose schooling stopped at 14. DM was a SAHM who was able to re-sew cloths so that they could be passed down to my 2 DBs.

Thanks to the old system we all went to Uni and got degrees (the first on both sides of the family). With one DB getting a PhD (he's American now).

Just for balance.

Yes of course there were some people from disadvantaged backgrounds who made it to university but the data shows is that these were very much the exception rather than the rule.

The introduction of the grammar school system was meant to give bright young people from disadvantaged backgrounds an opportunity to get a better education and go on to university. In an individual level this worked for some people but on a societal level it just perpetrated inequalities as grammar schools weren't evenly distributed across the country.

So yes, there are examples like this but we need to be aware that this wasn't the experience for all young people from disadvantaged backgrounds.